[drapoel]

Dear Member,
 
I have (could be) a simple question to you all, hopefully you could help me..
 
Ok, nowadays, i am using the headamp from Asus Essence STX and Audiotrak Prodigy XT to power my HD650 & K702? I have changed stock opamp of Prodigy XT headamp section from JRC5522 to LME49860NA.
 
I bought those sound cards because of its powerful headamp section and great DAC. (but i just sold my STX just few months ago, and keep my Prodigy XT)
 
A friend of mine told me that headamp section in Prodigy XT is more powerful than Grace M902. He tested it with his Orthodynamic ID1. He told me that surprisingly ID1 can sing more loudly than Grace M902 did..
 
My question is, can i improve the sound of HD 650 significantly by using external headphones amplifier like Burson HA-160 or Graham Slee Solo SRG II or Corda Swing/Concerto?
 
or maybe, i just need to change the stock cable of HD650 to improve its sound quality instead of buying a new desktop amp?
 
Please need your advice, thank you very much..

 

[zenpunk]

To this day, nobody on this planet has been able to detect a difference in headphone cables in a DBT test so forget about the cable upgrade. I moved from the STX to a Concerto and  the improvement was noticeable but subtle ( I only have low impedance cans) . There is no doubt the Concerto is more refined and musical, and I am sure the Burson and GS Solo will be equally good. The difference is likely to be more obvious with high impedance phones like the HD650.  I can definitely recommends the Concerto but don't expect "significant" or "night and day" improvements. 
As you seem to be new around here I will just warn you to take anything you read on this site with a pinch of salt.

 

[drapoel]

Quote:

To this day, nobody on this planet has been able to detect a difference in headphone cables in a DBT test so forget about the cable upgrade. I moved from the STX to a Concerto and  the improvement was noticeable but subtle ( I only have low impedance cans) . There is no doubt the Concerto is more refined and musical, and I am sure the Burson and GS Solo will be equally good. The difference is likely to be more obvious with high impedance phones like the HD650.  I can definitely recommends the Concerto but don't expect "significant" or "night and day" improvements. 
As you seem to be new around here I will just warn you to take anything you read on this site with a pinch of salt.

 
Thanks Zenpunk.. Do you still use your STX as DAC until now?
 
If the improvement is not quite obvious & overt, maybe i will keep listening my high-impedance cans with sound card. I just want a "night & day" improvement, i know it is hard, because this hobby (so far i know) is playing around "subtle-improvement" area. But i don't know if the improvement is coming from DAC. What i know is amplifier is only amplify the signal, and the DAC is improve the signal. Please correct me if i am wrong

 
Yup thanks for your reminder.
 
Anymore suggestions?

 

[zenpunk]

The problem is everybody will have a different idea of what a significant improvement is. Many people on this site will go to great length and spend thousands to get an 0.01% improvement (look at those cable and jitter discussion). Since frequenting this site I upgraded to separate DAC and amp (Concerto +Stagedac). I can honestly say I have no regret and enjoy the sound of that combo very much but I also realised how good the STX is considering its price. So if you can afford it, go for it but take into consideration the law of diminishing return. The HD650 is said to be very finicky about amplification so the improvement might be more obvious.

 

[drapoel]

Quote:

The problem is everybody will have a different idea of what a significant improvement is. Many people on this site will go to great length and spend thousands to get an 0.01% improvement (look at those cable and jitter discussion). Since frequenting this site I upgraded to separate DAC and amp (Concerto +Stagedac). I can honestly say I have no regret and enjoy the sound of that combo very much but I also realised how good the STX is considering its price. So if you can afford it, go for it but take into consideration the law of diminishing return. The HD650 is said to be very finicky about amplification so the improvement might be more obvious.

 
Nice.. But i just curious if you just find subtle improvement, why do you upgrade your system from STX to Concerto+StageDAC? Have you ever been tested those before you decided to buy?
 
Sorry for the detail question.. Because i really want to stop my curiosity thoroughly.
 
Thanks so much for your feedback..
 
Anymore inputs?

 

[leeperry]

 

 
can i improve the sound of HD 650 significantly by using external headphones amplifier like Burson HA-160

 
the headamp in the STX is a $2 chip fed in ±12V from a nasty computer PSU...yes, a Burson 160(fully discrete design fed in ±18V from a clean PSU) will be a major improvement, no question about it. BTW I've owned the STX/ST and currently run a Burson 160

 

[drapoel]

Quote:

 
 
the headamp in the STX is a $2 chip fed in ±12V from a nasty computer PSU...yes, a Burson 160(fully discrete design fed in ±18V from a clean PSU) will be a major improvement, no question about it. BTW I've owned the STX/ST and currently run a Burson 160

Nice leeperry, the experienced user.
 
But, i have one more question in mind..
 
As far as i know, amplifier is only amplify the signal, so if an amplifier can power cans properly, do i need to find another one? What kind of improvement if i change to a discrete amplifier? Engineering-related explanation would be much appreciated here, so don't worry.
 
Sorry i am just novice here, have no opportunity to audition any. Thanks all

.

 

[leeperry]

 

As far as i know, amplifier is only amplify the signal, so if an amplifier can power cans properly, do i need to find another one? What kind of improvement if i change to a discrete amplifier?

 
Well, the STX is all about specs...they want to impress you w/ 124 dB SNR yada yada, but SNR doesn't mean jack: http://ixbtlabs.com/articles3/multimedia/asus-d2.html
 
"ASUS apparently fights Creative with the same marketing weapon - high SNR. Measured in the standard de factor, Audio Precision, the ASUS D2 demonstrates 118 dBA, while the Creative Elite Pro offers 116 dBA. In fact, SNR values above -100 dBA do not make practical sense. Such values are lower than quantization noise power of a 16 bit signal with TPDF (Triangular Probability Density Function). As no one has complained about noises in AudioCDs yet, high SNR for audio playback is overkill."
 
96dB of SNR and you'd be just fine(especially for headphones listening, as usually reasonable ppl don't listen loud at all)...that's what an audio CD does, and it's a known fact that THD/SNR/IMD/THD+N don't mean jack as for the final SQ...that's only what Asus and Creative want you to believe.
 
http://www.gearslutz.com/board/4432704-post5.html
 
"Actually, there were many scientific researches that proved that all variations of IMD, THT, THD+N tests, and all other specific tests can't be used to say how well the sound is reproduced in terms of subconscious human perceptions. And there still are some stubborn engineers and scientists who won't see any evidences."
 
http://www.auzentech.com/site/products/x-fi_forte.php
 
"in the Hi-Fi market, a card with a lower THD would produce a sound that can become too "flat."
 
The specs of the STX are impressive, but don't mean jack about the "SQ" per se. Uber-low THD is very nice, but it can easily be agressive and bland. A Burson HA-160 will add harmonic distortion where it matters, it will sound much more analog and you will enjoy it far more..the SS will become as 3D as can be and the mids will make you stay in awe.
 
It's like synthesizers, an untouched sound will sound ugly...you need to process/color it to make it sound good, noone wants to listen to pure sinewaves(try LME49723 if you dare ^^)
 
You could also try to use tube modelling/analog EQ VST plugins on your STX to get a grasp of what a dirtier signal can do for you.
 
And tbh, the STX has a major flaw, which is that its masterclock is 24.576MHz(48kHz*512) so jitter in 44.1kHz is horrid...reason why they added a clock conditioner on the ST, and after you've heard the ST the STX is unbearable.
 
now you know why some ppl do this kind of stunts: http://bursonaudioblog.blogspot.com/2009/11/asus-xonar-stx-sound-card-upgraded-with.html
 

 

[Professor00179]

I don't really know the answer to the OP's question but I've noticed something interesting.
 
"I also realised how good the STX is considering its price."
 
I seriously think that the DAC in STX is very underrated here on head-fi (talking about head-fi in general not computer audio forums). I can see how many people here see this card as a complete crap just because it is a... soundcard. Few weeks ago I even seen one member recommending uDAC over STX... My point is that the DAC (can't comment on the AMP) in this soundcard is very good for the price and some people seem to be ucapable to understand it.

  I obviously don't say there are no better DACs than the one in STX. It's jut you have to spend a lot more to get sound that would be a definite upgrade.
 
(When you read this post with fury and need of crushing someone's head bear in mind I didn't want to insult anybody)
 
@drapoel
Just like leeperry stated the headamp in STX is not a really good thing. Especially if you got very demanding headphones like HD650 and K701 you should buy good amplification to your STX. I can't really recommend anything but the MiniMAX which I use. People in the DIY section say it has phenomenal synergy with sennheisers (have HD580 and agree) and K701. I have seen one without case (or custom case) in the fs forums lately. I don't know how it compares to other AMPs you mention though.

 

[myinitialsaredac]

Quote:

Quote:

 
 
the headamp in the STX is a $2 chip fed in ±12V from a nasty computer PSU...yes, a Burson 160(fully discrete design fed in ±18V from a clean PSU) will be a major improvement, no question about it. BTW I've owned the STX/ST and currently run a Burson 160

Nice leeperry, the experienced user.
 
But, i have one more question in mind..
 
As far as i know, amplifier is only amplify the signal, so if an amplifier can power cans properly, do i need to find another one? What kind of improvement if i change to a discrete amplifier? Engineering-related explanation would be much appreciated here, so don't worry.
 
Sorry i am just novice here, have no opportunity to audition any. Thanks all

.

Amplifiers don't just amplify the source signal that you want them to. They also amplify any 'dirty' signals that come through their circuitry that can manifest from power supplies or digital/analog crosstalk, yada yada. Amp topologies will also affect the sound because different capacitors, resistors, etc. function differently in the real world. In theory every resistor/cap etc. would perform "perfectly" but we dont live in a theoretical perfect world. It's hard to say how different components will affect the sound but for a loose concept consider tubes. Tubes generally act as operational amplifiers and yet it is accepted that they sound different from one another for many reasons (materials, temperature, harmonics, etc. etc.). 
 
Hope this gives a general concept that amplifiers don't perfectly amplify the source but can have many variances from the shielding, componentry, amplification circuit and implementation, power sources, etc. etc. 
 
Also I think the Burson offerings look fantastic in reviews.
 
Dave
 

 

[brendon]

If you have a Sennheiser HD650 then do upgrade your amp. I have used various amps with the HD650 and they love power. And the difference CAN be night and day but the STX works well with high impedance headphones so it wont be that dramatic for you. However there will definitely be a noticeable difference with a better amp. THe HD650 is known to scale well with better equipment.