[spanimal]

The science of why cables might sound different is there somewhere - don't ask me where it is I don't know (my primary hobby is dedicated to the research of SCIENTIFIC understanding in the mystery of the opposite sex). Skeptics dismiss this science, just as I now MUST dismiss the suggestion that science is capable of measuring sonic differences within two components that share the same measured responses.

Most sceptics are all hypocritical as most follow this percentage of system components rule blah blah. If one uses a cable for fear that another MIGHT impede the full potential of ones jewels, then one does not find true the concept of absolute parity between different cables. I have FULL RESPECT for these individuals - they do not hope to go into the full lengthy process of comparing as they have other more interesting infatuations (I hope for everyones sake that its Human Reproduction - ***** ****ing - if you like). If one USES a thicker cable above and over those REALLY SKINNY ones in the belief of interference rejection capabilities. That mean YOU, yes YOU - do beleive that cables impact sound. END OF STORY

I DO NOT believe in a GOD - as I am all science. I am not a hypocrite in any shape of form. SPANIMAL declares that should this "GOD" come down here to tell me I am wrong - I shall explain to "GOD" to get is fat ass (must be fat cause he doesn't do **** all) back to heaven - and not interfere with REALITY. Prove me wrong - strike me with lightning.

 

[fjf]

I admire your primary hobby, although I think you are wasting your time (but it is yours to spend as you wish). However, how do you think we know aspirin works and should be sold in pharmacies?.

Yes, you are right. Double blind tests. It is amazing that people trust their medicines to be studied with a methodology they do not trust to be used with their audio gear. But that's the way people are. Irrational.

 

[Happy Camper]

Thicker isn't always better. I've heard DIYers claims that transformer wire does better than store bought ICs and power cables.

 

[spanimal]

Quote:

Originally Posted by fjf /img/forum/go_quote.gif I admire your primary hobby, although I think you are wasting your time (but it is yours to spend as you wish). However, how do you think we know aspirin works and should be sold in pharmacies?. Yes, you are right. Double blind tests. It is amazing that people trust their medicines to be studied with a methodology they do not trust to be used with their audio gear. But that's the way people are. Irrational.

Is there a controversy with aspirin - I found panadol works OK, but have never used aspirin so I cannot comment.

I believe that in order to pass a test - subjects should study the material to be examined, VERY VERY CLOSELY, committing every last detail to memory, In his own personnal time before entering a test - sounds LOGICAL to me. If the results of a true and false or multiple choice question is split 50/50 between correct and incorrect answers, is it not inconceivable that those that responded incorrectly did not study the subject matter intently enough - having not commited the details to memory hence could not recall the correct response. That is the sole reason that the validity of DBT are questioned with valid points by numerous posts here including one from an expereince tester that is a skeptic. How can these results be submitted as scientific EVIDENCE.

 

[fjf]

It is quite simple: if people cannot tell the difference (50/50 correct/incorrect answers in a DBT test), then there is no audible difference, then why bother?. Why spend tons of money on something you cannot differentiate consistently?. That's why we use aspirine: because it helps significantly. After we get results, we use statistics to help knowing when it is not just by chance. We could use some other pill covered in diamond dust and golden leaf, and would not get any better. But we could tell everyone that we eat diamonds.

 

[spanimal]

I seek some clarification with DBT. Is it where many people carry out listening tests to various equipment and results tabulated or is it a sole individual listening to multiple pieces of equipment.

I agree completetly that if one could not differentiate in such a test then one perhaps should not be belleving that cables make difference to HIM.

I would be more than happy to do a test with MY music and two of MY chosen cables (the ones I hear are polar opposites in sound presentation) using MY music. All of which I am very intimate with. I make a GUARANTEE that I will be able to pick the correct response - the difference between the two is as large as the difference between 320 mp3 and lossless. I do not even need to spend a tonne of money - why do people use expensive cables for this argument. Differences in CHEAP cables is the ONLY experience I have.

Your DBT tests only argue for what can be perceived in the difference in sound - this ultimately depends on the individual.

MY HYPOTHESIS is that any changes within the atomic or sub-atomic level of any piece of equipment will yield changes in the sonic spectrum - no matter how minute. How the hell is a DBT going to test that. I would a fail a DBT on mathematical questions purely because somethings I do not know - and it is COMPLETELY irrelevant and pointless to me, that is why I do not know some answers. I argue the same for cables.

 

[spanimal]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Happy Camper /img/forum/go_quote.gif Thicker isn't always better. I've heard DIYers claims that transformer wire does better than store bought ICs and power cables.

Really? I guarntee it will change the sound but I cannot guarantee that this sounds better. I would like to hear about all your experiences with cables - as this phenomena is VERY new to me and I am LARGELY inexperienced within this ELITE field of Audio analysis.

 

[spanimal]

Quote:

Originally Posted by leeperry /img/forum/go_quote.gif This is a quote from a friend of mine who's an EE "all these ppl saying that cables matter are 99.9% auto-induced subjective, and let their brain make them hear what they want to hear"

Hi, I am from the other 0.01% that is non-induced objective, Elite Truth Soldier. Nice to meet you.

(whats a dead horse?)

 

[BIG POPPA]

I would like one to prove to me that a cable, pure copper or pure silver, even maybe silver plated copper, that when you make 2 cables or 2 sets of cables with different connectors like 1 set of cables with gold connectors and one with Silver or Rhodium connectors that they sound the same? And why they sound the same and what gear they were demo'd on? Just curious?

 

[spanimal]

MAN you have a keen sense of hearing - I have no Idea of what differences these might bring. Seeing as I have been able to hear differences in stacking equipment, power conditioning and cables - all of which you mentioned previously - and seeing that you have more experience than I do. I am just going to have to take your word for it and that indeed you can hear the difference.

The reason these guys can't prove that they sound the same in their tests is because it is all in THEIR heads. Though I like FJF he is very mature and seems very intelligent in his arguments - cheers, mate.

 

[BIG POPPA]

Look at the periodic table. All the metals are different. How can they sound the same? The properties of each metal is different. Some are better conductors than others. Break it down, Really?

 

[nick_charles]

Quote:

Originally Posted by BIG POPPA /img/forum/go_quote.gif I would like one to prove to me that a cable, pure copper or pure silver, even maybe silver plated copper, that when you make 2 cables or 2 sets of cables with different connectors like 1 set of cables with gold connectors and one with Silver or Rhodium connectors that they sound the same? And why they sound the same and what gear they were demo'd on? Just curious?

I tested 9 different cables , different materials (copper, spc, silver) (solid, stranded) and different connectors and they were all measurably near indistinguishable (100ths of a db difference) and not differentiable in a blind test, yet using the same set-up I was able to DBT different CD players reliably (10/10) when the differences were only 10ths of a db.

My set-up was very simple, I ran cables from the analog outputs of my CD player (Denon DCD910) to a ADC (Edirol UA-1EX/Behringer UCA202) and recorded samples in Audacity. I plotted the spectra in Audacity, exported the amplitude values and plotted them in Excel as line graphs but also did some stats on the (900 sample) data sets. Differences were small, never averaging more than 0.07db, but more to the point, not one cable showed any FR that was notably other than absolutely flat, none showed any definable sonic character other than flat.

 

[deaconblues]

Quote:

Originally Posted by BIG POPPA /img/forum/go_quote.gif Look at the periodic table. All the metals are different. How can they sound the same? The properties of each metal is different. Some are better conductors than others. Break it down, Really?

Well, the 2 most conductive elements on the periodic table are copper and silver, which are pretty much the only metals we use for audio cables. That narrows down the field quite a bit. On top of that, the difference between their conductivities isn't a whole lot. As blind tests and measurements have shown, the slight difference in their conductivity has no effect on signals in the audio frequencies.

Here's a chart showing electrical conductivity of some materials.
Electrical conductivity - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

 

[Uncle Erik]

Quote:

Originally Posted by spanimal /img/forum/go_quote.gif I believe that in order to pass a test - subjects should study the material to be examined, VERY VERY CLOSELY, committing every last detail to memory, In his own personnal time before entering a test - sounds LOGICAL to me. If the results of a true and false or multiple choice question is split 50/50 between correct and incorrect answers, is it not inconceivable that those that responded incorrectly did not study the subject matter intently enough - having not commited the details to memory hence could not recall the correct response. That is the sole reason that the validity of DBT are questioned with valid points by numerous posts here including one from an expereince tester that is a skeptic. How can these results be submitted as scientific EVIDENCE.

Sometimes, memorizing every last detail won't get you through a multiple choice test.

One that I'm familiar with is the MBE, or the Multistate Bar Exam. Knowing the law is not enough to pass. You have to correctly apply your knowledge.

The MBE is deliberately obfuscated. Whatever a question seems to be in the beginning will transform into something else by the end. What looks like a contracts question will segue into torts. Or any of several topics.

Further, you'll read the question, note the switch, then race through your memory of the topic outline and come to the correct response. But when you review the choices, you'll notice that not one of them precisely fits the answer you know is right. You then have to go through each of them to eliminate what's wrong with the answer before backing into the correct one. Sometimes you'll get a point for more than one answer. Oh, and sometimes, none of the answers are correct.

Tricky and borderline sadstic, but the point is to force you to deal with conflicting answers and the possibility of no correct answer in the real world. It isn't easy. I made it through, but a lot of people don't.

Which is how the world works. Sometimes, there are multiple right answers. Sometimes, you trick yourself into thinking that there's an answer when there really isn't one. How do you know whether you're even looking at things the right way?

I think the point you're missing is that tests are frameworks. If you hold tight to the framework, then you miss the point. You have to gather all the evidence available, then interpret it. If evidence points to something uncomfortable to your framework, you just have to accept reality and develop a new framework that includes everything you've learned.

The problem with most cable "believers" is that they refuse to take everything into consideration. Your mind plays tricks on you.

Are the two circles really round? They are, but your mind screams at you otherwise. If you think there's something special going on inside a cable, you need to stop and consider that your mind isn't perfect. It says the circles aren't round, but they are. You have to account for suggestion, placebo and many other mind tricks before you can be sure that what you hear is really what is being reproduced.

Raging against electrical test equipment would be like trying to find fault with someone using a compass to prove these circles are round.

If you think electrical test equipment is flawed, you need to take a much closer look at human test equipment, so to speak. Humans make for a deeply flawed test apparatus. When every DBT of cables has failed and sensitive equipment says that there is no difference, you need to take a hard look at yourself.

 

[gilency]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Uncle Erik /img/forum/go_quote.gif Sometimes, memorizing every last detail won't get you through a multiple choice test. One that I'm familiar with is the MBE, or the Multistate Bar Exam. Knowing the law is not enough to pass. You have to correctly apply your knowledge. The MBE is deliberately obfuscated. Whatever a question seems to be in the beginning will transform into something else by the end. What looks like a contracts question will segue into torts. Or any of several topics. Further, you'll read the question, note the switch, then race through your memory of the topic outline and come to the correct response. But when you review the choices, you'll notice that not one of them precisely fits the answer you know is right. You then have to go through each of them to eliminate what's wrong with the answer before backing into the correct one. Sometimes you'll get a point for more than one answer. Oh, and sometimes, none of the answers are correct. Tricky and borderline sadstic, but the point is to force you to deal with conflicting answers and the possibility of no correct answer in the real world. It isn't easy. I made it through, but a lot of people don't. Which is how the world works. Sometimes, there are multiple right answers. Sometimes, you trick yourself into thinking that there's an answer when there really isn't one. How do you know whether you're even looking at things the right way? I think the point you're missing is that tests are frameworks. If you hold tight to the framework, then you miss the point. You have to gather all the evidence available, then interpret it. If evidence points to something uncomfortable to your framework, you just have to accept reality and develop a new framework that includes everything you've learned. The problem with most cable "believers" is that they refuse to take everything into consideration. Your mind plays tricks on you. Are the two circles really round? They are, but your mind screams at you otherwise. If you think there's something special going on inside a cable, you need to stop and consider that your mind isn't perfect. It says the circles aren't round, but they are. You have to account for suggestion, placebo and many other mind tricks before you can be sure that what you hear is really what is being reproduced. Raging against electrical test equipment would be like trying to find fault with someone using a compass to prove these circles are round. If you think electrical test equipment is flawed, you need to take a much closer look at human test equipment, so to speak. Humans make for a deeply flawed test apparatus. When every DBT of cables has failed and sensitive equipment says that there is no difference, you need to take a hard look at yourself.

I appreciate your comments. Very well said.