[wind016]

I actually agree with you that the things generally aren't warm. However, I have difficulty believing things are not recorded with warmth. Guitarists use tube amps for a reason. If you really believe male vocals are recorded that brightly as you listen through the K701, then ionno... I'm too sleepy...

 

[Acix]

 
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I have yet to get a chance to listen to Sennheiser's HD 800.  

The funniest complaint I've seen about the AKG K 701/2s is that they "lack warmth". It is as if headphones should come with "warmth" and that if that distortion is missing then it is a matter for complaint.
 
Well I saw the AKG's at a good price and bought them, the K 702s. I am delighted with them, these really are superb hi fi. I can hear my CDs and audio files as they were recorded, which is what I want. I do not have ghastly warmth applied to them.
 
 

You know the K701s don't sound warm is because they have an extremely over emphasized lower treble and upper mids. They are colored in that fashion.

 
The K-702 are warmer and more natural compare to the 800s because the 70X are NOT over emphasized lower bass/sub and treble, and you can hear it especially on SS amps.

 

[Acix]

 
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To much treble on the HD-800, and I like the sound stage better on the K-702.

Really?  Mr. K702 himself?  No kidding....

 
lol, is not only me here that think the HD-800 are over emphasized, many peoples here start to get to the understanding that the 800's are over emphasized on the treble area. In my experience the 800s are over emphasized on the bass sub area too, and is possible to listen on low volume...but I don't think is the answer to this problem.

 

[p a t r i c k]

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I actually agree with you that the things generally aren't warm. However, I have difficulty believing things are not recorded with warmth. Guitarists use tube amps for a reason. If you really believe male vocals are recorded that brightly as you listen through the K701, then ionno... I'm too sleepy...

I listen to classical music mostly and of course it is not recorded with any warmth.
 
Sometimes the musicians do play with warmth, sometimes they do not.
 
I think the K 701/2s are very good at reproducing the warm and the cool tones that I listen to.
 
I do not for one minute think that the K 701/2s are perfect in this regard, but they are very very good indeed.
 
Unfortunately many headphones and amplifiers these days apply warmth to everything.
 
What I find amusing is when people complain that headphones that are for the most part neutral, like the K 701/2s "lack warmth"
 
I will say that the male vocals I listen to do not sound particularly bright, but my ones might be very different from yours.
 
I do know that the K 701/2s will replay any warmth that is in the music.
 
I also know that for me it is a great joy to have headphones that do not apply a warm soup to everything as has unfortunately become fashionable it seems.

 

[lejaz]

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I actually agree with you that the things generally aren't warm. However, I have difficulty believing things are not recorded with warmth. Guitarists use tube amps for a reason. If you really believe male vocals are recorded that brightly as you listen through the K701, then ionno... I'm too sleepy...

 
I'm with you on this one wind016. Not just vocals, but muted trumpets and brass sections can be over the top bright with the 702. Not like I remember them sounding from my days playing in a jazz orchestra in high school. Muted trumpets can sound down right awful...at least with MY set up. I never heard them with tubes.

 

[p a t r i c k]

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I'm with you on this one wind016. Not just vocals, but muted trumpets and brass sections can be over the top bright with the 702. Not like I remember them sounding from my days playing in a jazz orchestra in high school. Muted trumpets can sound down right awful...at least with MY set up. I never heard them with tubes.

It is certainly a legitimate complaint that the K 701/2s can misbehave on treble, because of course this is true.
 
This is really a separate issue from complaining that they "lack warmth", as if the unfortunate fashion for headphones and amplifiers to apply warmth to everything was something to complain about if absent.
 
In weighing up the pros and cons of the K 701/2s I will personally far prefer their weakness, of misbehaving sometimes on treble, to what for me is the awful application of warmth by some other headphones.
 
The best cure, btw, for the treble misbehaviour of the K 701/2s is a good transparent amplifier. If the amplifier is giving the headphones good information about the treble then they will most likely render it well.

 

[Acix]

 
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I'm with you on this one wind016. Not just vocals, but muted trumpets and brass sections can be over the top bright with the 702. Not like I remember them sounding from my days playing in a jazz orchestra in high school. Muted trumpets can sound down right awful...at least with MY set up. I never heard them with tubes.

For the treble misbehaviour of the K 701/2s is a good transparent amplifier. If the amplifier is giving the headphones good information about the treble then they will most likely render it well.F

 
X1
 

 

[lejaz]

Interesting....I never thought that the culprit could be the LD mkV amp. Supposed to be very transparent and neutral. But there are far more costlier amps and DACs, so  I suppose a better set up could solve the brightness issue. But, I think some folks who have heard the 70X with better set ups have still noticed too much upper mid/treble emphasis. I could be mistaken on that.
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I'm with you on this one wind016. Not just vocals, but muted trumpets and brass sections can be over the top bright with the 702. Not like I remember them sounding from my days playing in a jazz orchestra in high school. Muted trumpets can sound down right awful...at least with MY set up. I never heard them with tubes.

It is certainly a legitimate complaint that the K 701/2s can misbehave on treble, because of course this is true.
 
This is really a separate issue from complaining that they "lack warmth", as if the unfortunate fashion for headphones and amplifiers to apply warmth to everything was something to complain about if absent.
 
In weighing up the pros and cons of the K 701/2s I will personally far prefer their weakness, of misbehaving sometimes on treble, to what for me is the awful application of warmth by some other headphones.
 
The best cure, btw, for the treble misbehaviour of the K 701/2s is a good transparent amplifier. If the amplifier is giving the headphones good information about the treble then they will most likely render it well.

 

[p a t r i c k]

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Interesting....I never thought that the culprit could be the LD mkV amp. Supposed to be very transparent and neutral. But there are far more costlier amps and DACs, so  I suppose a better set up could solve the brightness issue. But, I think some folks who have heard the 70X with better set ups have still noticed too much upper mid/treble emphasis. I could be mistaken on that.

Well first this brightness issue is a separate one from the warmth one
 
I don't know anything about the LD mkV amp.
 
The biggest weakness of the K 701/2 is the tendency to misbehave on treble.
 
My experience is that with a better amplifier this problem reduces. However I do still have a few recordings that will show this problem.
 
There is no correlation between the warmth business and the bright treble. If you use an amplifier that is warm then you will just have two problems, the warmth and the bright treble. One doesn't cancel out the other.
 
When the K 701/2 is behaving itself on treble, which is in my set up most of the time, the quality of the treble is absolutely superb. It is really amazing how much detail there is and how the K 701/2s can replay even the most complicated of tonal structures.
 
 

 

[wind016]

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I'm with you on this one wind016. Not just vocals, but muted trumpets and brass sections can be over the top bright with the 702. Not like I remember them sounding from my days playing in a jazz orchestra in high school. Muted trumpets can sound down right awful...at least with MY set up. I never heard them with tubes.

It is certainly a legitimate complaint that the K 701/2s can misbehave on treble, because of course this is true.
 
This is really a separate issue from complaining that they "lack warmth", as if the unfortunate fashion for headphones and amplifiers to apply warmth to everything was something to complain about if absent.
 
In weighing up the pros and cons of the K 701/2s I will personally far prefer their weakness, of misbehaving sometimes on treble, to what for me is the awful application of warmth by some other headphones.
 
The best cure, btw, for the treble misbehaviour of the K 701/2s is a good transparent amplifier. If the amplifier is giving the headphones good information about the treble then they will most likely render it well.

I'll have to disagree. It's treble is so bright for me that I can't stand wearing them. Vocals in no way sound natural to me. The softest vocals sound shouty. Maybe you'll have to listen other headphones, because I initially thought the AKGs sounded very realistic, so don't confuse me of being anti-AKG. Vocals lack lower mids and K701s have a huge upper mid spike. That doesn't need to be argued unless you choose to. Either way, the treble and the mids of the AKGs through a solid state hurt my ears and I would in no way call that realistic. A tad more warmth and they can be considered realistic.

 

[wind016]

http://www.head-fi.org/forum/thread/413900/how-to-equalize-your-headphones-a-tutorial
 
Look at the first few pictures of this thread to get an idea of how boosted the upper mids are, at least to the average ear.
 
However, I was not able to EQ the K701 to my liking. Too much equalizing and too many bars for my liking.

 

[p a t r i c k]

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I'll have to disagree. It's treble is so bright for me that I can't stand wearing them. Vocals in no way sound natural to me. The softest vocals sound shouty. Maybe you'll have to listen other headphones, because I initially thought the AKGs sounded very realistic, so don't confuse me of being anti-AKG. Vocals lack lower mids and K701s have a huge upper mid spike. That doesn't need to be argued unless you choose to. Either way, the treble and the mids of the AKGs through a solid state hurt my ears and I would in no way call that realistic. A tad more warmth and they can be considered realistic.

Well my experience is completely different from yours. I use AKG K 702s with a first class solid state amplifier and for me they sound quite superb and are very realistic indeed, the most realistic headphones I've used and I have been using headphones and hi fi in general for over 30 years.
 
I listen today, almost exclusively to classical music and my reference, if you like, for "realism" is the Royal Festival Hall which as I stated earlier is one of the best acoustic environments in the world, if not the best.
 
Please note that I don't think for one minute that you are anti-AKG and I don't wish to devalue you experience in any way, but I do think I will have to disagree on the "realism" issue
 
The "warmth" issue doesn't really have anything to do with tonal balance. Warmth is most usually caused by a significant amount of even-order harmonic distortion. This of course is why valve amplifiers (tubes in US) are so associated with it because bad valve amplifiers produce a lot of even-order harmonic distortion.
 
It is true that very large amounts of hi fi equipment today seems to be quite reluctant to let us hear treble in its full glory. Going to a classical concert you might be surprised just how strong the treble is compared with that you hear on so many forms of audio replay equipment.

 

[p a t r i c k]

Quote:

http://www.head-fi.org/forum/thread/413900/how-to-equalize-your-headphones-a-tutorial
 
Look at the first few pictures of this thread to get an idea of how boosted the upper mids are, at least to the average ear.
 
However, I was not able to EQ the K701 to my liking. Too much equalizing and too many bars for my liking.

I don't think tonal balance plays a part in either of the issues that have come up.
 
One of the reasons I find the AKG K 702s to be so good for me is that they do not have the warmth that unfortunately so many pieces of hi fi equipment come with.
 
This warmth with those other headphones and amplifiers is not due to a particular tonal balance but other issues.
 
Instruments at the far end of the treble spectrum can play warm and cold sounds and great musicians can exploit these abilities.
 
The other issue which has arisen is the AKG K 702 flaw which is that they can misbehave on treble. I write can, because in fact the AKG K 702 are most of the time truly superb on treble.
 
This misbehaviour is not about tonal balance but rather I think it is that if they are supplied without enough information, then they seem to have a tendency to lose control at the top end.
 
It is why I think that very good amplifiers can greatly improve this aspect of the AKG K 702s.

 

[lejaz]

I think what wind016 and I are referring to is mostly the upper mids as opposed to treble. I notice that my k240DF has plenty of clarity in the upper mids, but doesn't give the shrill sound to horns and other high pitched instruments that the 702 does. Is that the treble 'misbehaving' due to the LD amp or not....I can't say. I don't have much experience with live classical music, but I do have a lot with live jazz, and the 240DF gives a much more realistic portrayal of a jazz horn section IMO... the Beyer dt48 too. Whether a very expensive ss amp would improve that upper mid peakiness or not I can't say.
 
Quote:

Quote:

http://www.head-fi.org/forum/thread/413900/how-to-equalize-your-headphones-a-tutorial
 
Look at the first few pictures of this thread to get an idea of how boosted the upper mids are, at least to the average ear.
 
However, I was not able to EQ the K701 to my liking. Too much equalizing and too many bars for my liking.

I don't think tonal balance plays a part in either of the issues that have come up.
 
One of the reasons I find the AKG K 702s to be so good for me is that they do not have the warmth that unfortunately so many pieces of hi fi equipment come with.
 
This warmth with those other headphones and amplifiers is not due to a particular tonal balance but other issues.
 
Instruments at the far end of the treble spectrum can play warm and cold sounds and great musicians can exploit these abilities.
 
The other issue which has arisen is the AKG K 702 flaw which is that they can misbehave on treble. I write can, because in fact the AKG K 702 are most of the time truly superb on treble.
 
This misbehaviour is not about tonal balance but rather I think it is that if they are supplied without enough information, then they seem to have a tendency to lose control at the top end.
 
It is why I think that very good amplifiers can greatly improve this aspect of the AKG K 702s.

 

[rhythmdevils]

a lack of information coming from the amplifier causes the K701 to put out more upper midrange frequencies?