And now for something completely different
Jun 7, 2004 at 11:43 AM Thread Starter Post #1 of 19

kevin gilmore

Señor Stax. Señor MAXX.
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For all you tube types here is what you all have been waiting for.
All dc coupled, don't have to listen to electrolytic output caps anymore
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http://gilmore.chem.northwestern.edu/migmini.gif

Fets and tubes. For dynamic headphones.
Now i don't expect many of you to actually build it with
6c33's, so it works equally well with paralleled sections of 6sn7's
if you cut the bias down to 20ma per pair of triode sections.
(or stack up a bunch of 6sn7's and make it look like a mini atmasphere)

If you do build it with 6c33's then it is absolutely imperative that
some kind of time delay between power on and high voltage is
used. About 1 minute. Otherwise the cathodes of the tubes get
stripped, and rather quickly at that.
 
Jun 8, 2004 at 3:17 AM Post #3 of 19
Quote:

Now i don't expect many of you to actually build it with 6c33's


I have been playing with the '33 recently and without commenting on the sound (I never comment on subjectives) I CAN say they are some of the coolest looking tubes out there and is the way to go if only for the as KG says "Something Completely Different"

current hungry devils though
 
Jun 8, 2004 at 8:18 AM Post #4 of 19
The four tubes alone, not counting PSU losses, would consume 320W?!
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Cool.
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Two questions: The P channel FET at upper right is an 2SJ74?

Secondly: Now that you have managed to get rid of all coupling caps, how do you propose one would go about making a sufficiently stiff PSU without any 'capacitor sound' to it? 2x 150V @ 2x 250mA isn't exactly trivial if it has to be regulated...
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Frank.
 
Jun 8, 2004 at 10:42 AM Post #5 of 19
quote
The four tubes alone, not counting PSU losses, would consume 320W?!

YUP!

The fet at the top is a 2sj74 then 2sj79 then 2sk216

Yes you need a REALLY beefy power supply. Actually i'm using
a 400va transformer and diode bridges and running the thing unregulated
for now.

Since i can't find pc mount sockets for the 6c33 i'm doing a board
layout with a pair of 6as7's per channel. lowering the bias to say
100ma. Then it is a really easy build. Stuff the board with parts and
turn it on.

WARNING:
High voltage delay turn on absolutely required. Diode clamp delay
turn on on the output also required. Otherwise the tubes definitely
do not last very long. 6c33's only last about 600 to 750 hours anyway.
You can get years out of 6as7's or 6080's.
 
Jun 8, 2004 at 1:28 PM Post #6 of 19
Kevin:

My background with tubes is really more in the area of high power RF amps, and I have to admit, that I may be too chicken to build a bold DC coupled hybrid design like this one. I am a bit worried about the risk of an internal flashover in a tube frying the semiconductor control- and input circuits and/or the cans/operator...

Being quite new to the area of high quality headphone amps I am currently trying to get up to speed on the design and theory issues. By making paper designs and computer simulations I attempt to decide which circuits are worth trying out for real, and your designs are particularly interesting, as they, on the surface, appears to be 'overkill' in so many ways, while providing an interesting challenge for the rest of us in order to decipher the ideas behind.

Is there some place, where you discuss your ideas in more detail? I have been searching a bit, but haven't turned up any design discussions so far. Apart from the usual suspects in the spec department it would appear that you like your damping factor as high as it can possibly be imagined, among other things.
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Frank.
 
Jun 8, 2004 at 8:34 PM Post #7 of 19
high damping factor, yes
symetrical slew rates, definitely
capacitors or transformers in the signal path, definitely NOT
class A, you bet
massive overkill powersupplies, you betcha


For this amp, the dynahi, and many other amps where dc output
under fail conditions could toast your headphones a protection circuit
is absolutely necessary. Same as you would find in many high end
amplifiers. A slow integrator (about .5 hz should do it) and then
a limit detector. when the output goes out of the range of +.5 volts
to -.5 volts you throw a relay that either disconnects the output or
shorts it to ground.

Never seen a tube arc destroy the preceding stages, but if it happens,
so what, those parts are cheap anyway, its the headphones you
want to protect.

Most of the really big RF amps i have are grounded grid anyway, so
even if the grid completely fails or shorts to the cathode, its no big
deal as the high voltage supply kicks out way before the solid state
driver which is by its nature transformer coupled blows up.
 
Jun 8, 2004 at 9:54 PM Post #8 of 19
Cool -- it's simple enough that you could build it point-to-point.

What do you give up to get the circuit this simple (vs. the Mig2)?
 
Jun 8, 2004 at 10:41 PM Post #9 of 19
The mig/mig2 is grounded grid, the minimig is not. They do sound
different, but not by much.

You could build the minimig with a bunch of 6as7's and then
it starts to look and sound like the atma-sphere.

http://www.glacieraudio.com/Manufac/Atma-MA-3.html

notice the price! (at the very bottom)
 
Jun 8, 2004 at 10:57 PM Post #10 of 19
Whoa.
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Not being familiar with tube amp design at all... how would you add in *all* those extra 6as7s?

I don't think it would be a minimig then, either...
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Jun 10, 2004 at 1:14 PM Post #11 of 19
Kevin: The funny thing is that before I built my 6AS7G cathode follower headphone amp, I also considered internal sparks/ion discharges to be fairly rare in small glass receiving tube types. In fact I only recall seeing it once more than 15 years ago, in a ham radio transmitter, where the 6146 output tubes had been severely abused.

However one of my RCA 6AS7G tubes does arc internally, and yes, I was wearing the cans when it happened. Not fun at all. The amps is not DC coupled, so no permanent damage was done, but I'd rather not repeat the experience more than I absolutely have to.
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Sidebar (probably preaching for the choir here, but alas): In large ceramic/metal disc seal tubes of the 4CX1000 variety and larger, ion discharges are considered so much a part of normal operation that the surrounding circuit is designed with this in mind. Usually this is done via a large wattage 50-100 ohm resistor in the anode lead, plus an over voltage crowbar on the screen, if present. The large resistor current starves the discharge, extinguishing it, while the screen circuit discharges the over current to ground, protecting the screen supply- and bypass capacitor. Check the Eimac literature or the service manuals of your amps. I'm willing to take large bets that each and every one of your large tube amps will have this protection built in as a matter of course. End sidebar.

Subsequently I researched the matter a bit, and it would appear that the 6AS7G/6080 family is prone to this problem as well, especially the old RCA US variety. Perhaps somewhat surprisingly Atma-Sphere et al. suggests that current production Sovtek/Svetlana tubes are the best and most stable 6AS7G type tubes available anywhere. But perfect they are not. One Atma-Sphere customer gives non-documented figures of around 20% of new Svetlana 6AS7G suffering from problems in one form or another. He suggests pre-screening the tubes, before they go into an amp. Notice his note about sparking tubes and not having the speakers connected while testing and burning in new tubes.

My thinking is to bridge each output with a series/anti-parallel combination of high speed/high power diodes, hard limiting the output voltage to, say, +/- 1.4V. Any type of relay protection would not be fast enough by orders of magnitude to stop the discharge, so we might as well add some sacrificial lambs, who can take the kick from our supply caps. The protection circuit you describe could then shut the amp down some time later if the problem persists.

Add two similar diodes across each grid/cathode, limiting the grid voltage to max. 0.7V positive, and the driver circuit might not mind a spike too much. My hope is that the non-linear capacitance of the non-conducting diodes are so low, that it doesn't matter for the signal quality.

----

I have been speculating: What would be the trade-off if you limited the quiescent current to what a single 6AS7G in each branch could cope with, say 100mA or so, assuming the amp was only intended to be used with cans with 100 ohm or higher impedance? If you believe it would be worthwhile to scale the circuit down to 4x 6AS7G @ 2x 100V or perhaps even as low as 60V anode voltage, then I would be quite interested in building one of these monsters in the near future. Finding the semiconductors will be fun, seems my usual suppliers doesn't stock most of them...

Given a lower current a stabilized PSU could be made via a pair of suitable shunt (tube?) regulators for each channel. They wouldn't need to secure the DC OP, so the power consumption could be designed to be within 'reasonable' limits.
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I would also consider using a PCB, one per channel and including safety circuits, but with the two tubes off board to give me greater freedom when it comes to the physical layout.
 
Jun 10, 2004 at 4:03 PM Post #12 of 19
The 6c33's need 60 volts of grid to cathode voltage, so you
probably can't lower the power supply to less than +/-125

6as7's however (as i remember) run on about 30 volts so you
can probably sink the supply to +/-100, maybe a little less.

atmasphere's pictures of toasted 6as7's are certainly interesting.

The circuit should allow for significant changes in output tubes and
bias currents. Those fets are extremely easy to get in the usa.
 
Jun 10, 2004 at 9:31 PM Post #14 of 19
The single most expensive component is probably the transformer,
especially in the 6c33 versions. Filament power in 6c33's is thru
the roof.

Mig2 8 x 6c33 balanced configuration 620 watts power consumption.
tubes about $320 transformer about $180 rest of parts about $200
(tube current source)
(this goes in the truely insane category)

Mig 4 x 6c33 balanced configuration 460 watts power consumption
tubes about $160 transformer about $150 rest of parts about $250
(solid state current source)

minimig with 4 x 6c33 320 watts power consumption (unbalanced)
tubes about $160 transformer about $150 rest of parts about $150
(tube current source)

minimig with 4 x 6as7 about 120 watts power consumption (unbalanced)
tubes about $80 transformer about $110 rest of parts about $150
(tube current source)

plus or minus $50 to $100.

plus chassis.

Black gate caps certainly add to the cost.

The minimig is in fact also balanceable...with an extra second stage.
 
Jun 14, 2004 at 6:00 PM Post #15 of 19
Kevin; seems I managed to overlook that you had already considered the 4x 6AS7G configuration.
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I have been trying to scale the circuit, but it looks like there is a misprint or two in there... The 15K 'grid bias' resistor has 60V across it, so it draws 4mA, stealing a bit of current from the tube current source. However the 2SK216 is labelled as drawing 3mA of Ids, meaning that the 2SJ74/2SJ79 amplifier section draws negative current (which is impossible, of course).
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Also with the 3mA through the 2SK216, that MOSFET is reverse biased on the gate, and that will only get worse if we increase the Ids current. 3mA through 1.8K gives 5.4V, while the gate is only 3.7V above the negative supply rail.

Not having the plate curves for the 6C33C I have been trying to build/simulate the circuit in Spice + HP42S, and by making suitable changes to some resistors I can get the whole thing to balance with 2x 6AS7G (4 sections) at -40V of bias on the top tube. However at this point I have a forward bias of around +15V on the 2SK216, meaning that the Spice model I have for that device is ... problematic.
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Anyone have a known-to-be-reasonable model for the 2SK216?

And, now we are at it, one for the 2SC3381 as well, please? I'm currently using BC550 as a placeholder. *ahem*

I assumed the 2SC2705 CCS was meant to draw 2.8mA, equivalent to a voltage drop across the LED of around 2V.
 

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