[remedy1419]

Hey I'm thinking of getting a pair of HD650's as I'm really not all that happy with my ATH-AD700's, but I was wondering whether or not I need to invest in an amp to get the most out of them when using them on my computer.
 
My current setup is just my ATH-AD700's connected directly into my X-Fi Prelude, will that still be good enough for the HD650's or should I buy something like the Headroom Micro.
 
Really, I'm just looking for the next level of audio nirvana. Should I be buying a usb DAC with these and an amp? I have very little knowledge about amps and DAC's and all, all I know thus far is what a soundcard and opamp is.
 
Where do I go from here (if anywhere?) to get the most out of my HD650's? If I do have to get an amp, I'd prefer one around $2-$300 if you feel inclined to make recommendations.
 
Thanks in advance.

 

[ROBSCIX]

Yes, you will need an amplifer to drive the HD650's.  As to what you should look at, I will leave it to others to maker some recommendations.  I know there are some nice DIY tube amps that give great price to performance if you are into picking up a soldering iron.  Look in the DIY thread for some ideas.

 

[remedy1419]

Just read that the Prelude can drive 650's fairly well. I think I'll try seeing how it is with just the Prelude, and if it still sounds veiled pickup a Darkvoice 336 or Little Dot MKV.
 
Does that plan sound stupid?

 

[Vergex2]

Quote:

Just read that the Prelude can drive 650's fairly well. I think I'll try seeing how it is with just the Prelude, and if it still sounds veiled pickup a Darkvoice 336 or Little Dot MKV.
 
Does that plan sound stupid?

A Prelude is NOT a good match for a HD650. I had an HD555 and a Prelude, and in comparison to my uDac's headphone out, the uDac was a night and day difference - the Prelude really botched the bass, and the overall presentation was muddy and lacked good instrument separation.

Get yourself a real amp - a Prelude would be a massive bottleneck and that would be sacrilege to your HD650s, which are in a different league from HD555s. You would of course, also need a USB DAC.

 

[remedy1419]

So I should be getting a uDAC AND an amp now? Are uDAC's expensive?
 
I'm not sure I have the budget to get an amp, uDAC, and HD650. I can do two of those, but my overall budget is $800. I could really use some recommendations here for an amp and uDAC, I'm out of my depth completely.

 

[Vergex2]

A uDac is $99 new, at worst. They have a headphone out (3.5mm or 1/8" input) and support USB, coaxial, and RCA outs. They can also be used as a DAC, but the attenuator is faulty on these, and I know first hand that running these in RCA mode can inhibit distortion. The headphone out won't work for an HD650 (which uses 6.3mm or 1/8", but the uDac won't drive them properly anyway)

Most people would recommend you to grab something nicer than than a uDac for an HD650. $800 is plenty if you know where to look, especially if you are willing to buy used (I'd get the headphones new, and amp + DAC used either on ebay/audiogon or the for sale forums here). Do some research, post a thread in the main headphones section about amp/DAC matching, then proceed to find the best prices for your equipment.

Good luck.

 

[ROBSCIX]

 
Quote:

A Prelude is NOT a good match for a HD650. I had an HD555 and a Prelude, and in comparison to my uDac's headphone out, the uDac was a night and day difference - the Prelude really botched the bass, and the overall presentation was muddy and lacked good instrument separation.

Get yourself a real amp - a Prelude would be a massive bottleneck and that would be sacrilege to your HD650s, which are in a different league from HD555s. You would of course, also need a USB DAC.

The Prelude is a fine match for the headphones providing the user has an amplifer in there somwhere.  Without an amplifier they would sound seriously underpowered and veiled.
 
So in your opinion, is is beter to use a $89 uDAC then a modern soundcard with great spec's? -Either way the issue here is amplification...there are many great sources external internal etc.  Either way without the amp those cans will sound awful.
 

 

[Vergex2]

Quote:

 

The Prelude is a fine match for the headphones providing the user has an amplifer in there somwhere.  Without an amplifier they would sound seriously underpowered and veiled.
 
So in your opinion, is is beter to use a $89 uDAC then a modern soundcard with great spec's? -Either way the issue here is amplification...there are many great sources external internal etc.  Either way without the amp those cans will sound awful.
 

I meant that a Prelude alone would not drive HD650s properly - because they sound muddy and veiled even on my HD555s compared to uDac's headphone out.

From my experience (thousands of hours with HD555, I greatly preferred uDac > Prelude). Prelude does have nice specs, but it seems to underperform. Not to say that there aren't uses for it, but as a dedicated headphone amp - no, definitely not. At the same price you can get a Mini^3, which is far superior in most aspects, for my use anyway. Though I wouldn't use a Mini^3 to drive an HD650, either, from what I've heard about them (no experience here though, so don't quote me on that).

 

[ROBSCIX]

 
Quote:

I meant that a Prelude alone would not drive HD650s properly - because they sound muddy and veiled even on my HD555s compared to uDac's headphone out.

From my experience (thousands of hours with HD555, I greatly preferred uDac > Prelude). Prelude does have nice specs, but it seems to underperform. Not to say that there aren't uses for it, but as a dedicated headphone amp - no, definitely not.

I see.  That is an issue that many with higher quality phones don't really understand.  They connect their high impedance cans to whatever source and never consider they need proper amplificaiton.
Worse, they blame the source itself instead of their own lack of understanding.  The Prelude has line outputs and was never ever designed to be a"dedicated headphone amp" or meant to have high impedance cans connected directly to it.  The Forte, HTHD 7.1 or BRavura all have onboard can amplifers fo high impedance cans. 
 
IIRC, HD555's do not need an amplifier but the HD650's need one to sound their best.

 

[Vergex2]

Quote:

 

I see.  That is an issue that many with higher quality phones don't really understand.  They connect their high impedance cans to whatever source and never consider they need proper amplificaiton.
Worse, they blame the source itself instead of their own lack of understanding.  The Prelude has line outputs and was never ever designed to be a"dedicated headphone amp" or meant to have high impedance cans connected directly to it.  The Forte, HTHD 7.1 or BRavura all have onboard can amplifers fo high impedance cans. 
 
IIRC, HD555's do not need an amplifier but the HD650's need one to sound their best.

 
I don't like throwing around this term much, but to me, with so much experience with the HD555s, I have to say that the difference with cheap amplification (say, just $100 worth of, ie Mini^3) vs the headphone out of a DAP is night and day. Just as a Prelude and uDac is a night and day difference. Just because they are low impedance + high sensitivity doesn't mean iPods can drive them to their potential - not even close. 
 
You seem to know a bit about sound cards - how does the Prelude stack up to Auzen's other offerings? It was supposedly good when I got it, but is it relegated to a niche now? Or has it completely lost any of its value in modern days and should only be sold as a cheap product?
 

 

[ROBSCIX]

 
Quote:

 
I don't like throwing around this term much, but to me, with so much experience with the HD555s, I have to say that the difference with cheap amplification (say, just $100 worth of, ie Mini^3) vs the headphone out of a DAP is night and day. Just as a Prelude and uDac is a night and day difference. Just because they are low impedance + high sensitivity doesn't mean iPods can drive them to their potential - not even close. 
 
You seem to know a bit about sound cards - how does the Prelude stack up to Auzen's other offerings? It was supposedly good when I got it, but is it relegated to a niche now? Or has it completely lost any of its value in modern days and should only be sold as a cheap product?
 

I never said the Ipod could drive anything to it's potential.  What I was saying is the Prelude has line outputs so if you want to use higher impedance cans you need an amplifier.  I know some still use can amps when their cans don't require it. I guess it just depends on the quality of the sources outputs.  The Prelude is still considered one of the best gaming cards in existence.
The HD650's are some serious cans and while there are a few cards out there that can drive them right out of the box..I would still suggset buying an amplifer that is considered around the same quality as the cans.  You can go with a DAC/can amp also.  Lots of options out there... 

 

[remedy1419]

Great replies, thanks.
 
I think I'll stick to the Prelude -> amp -> HD650's
 
Any recommendations on what amp I should get? With the DAC out of the picture I have a bit more leeway with my budget. I can go up to about 300-350 for an amp.

 

[sonci]

http://www.head-fi.org/search.php?search=HD+650+best+amplifier

 

[metalgear]

the hd650 is a wonderful headphones. and the preludes have pretty good outputs.
 
don't think you'd go wrong with the $199 Maverick Audio D1 or the Audio GD Fun at $190 (excluding shipping). both are the flavour of the month right now. so you can read and learn before you buy.
 
then the real fun part is that you can then post your experience here, and find some new friends.

 

[ROBSCIX]

Yes, you can use the Prelude as your DAC/source but you require an amplifer, no question about that.  Some may suggest using a different source but the Prelude has very reasonable sound and measurments.  To try and keep your overall costs down I would use what you have for a source. Now, you have to find an amplifer that is a good match for your cans.
I would suggest a amp unit that will drive your cans to their potential. 
I would opt for some tubes but others like solid state.