Amp / Dac for HD800?
Apr 14, 2018 at 2:09 AM Thread Starter Post #1 of 18

RedVelvetLuna

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Just got a HD800, it's my first real headphone and I love it :3 But I currently have it plugged into my motherboard. I know you are supposed to have better amping for it to reach full potential.

From what I am told tube amps are much better for the HD800 then solid state, I have no idea what balanced means. Not sure what my exact budget is but I wouldn't want to go past 1000$, and I'd rather keep it closer to 500$.

I personally find the Lyr 3 very attractive, with maybe a topping D30 because apparently schiit dacs are quite bad. I have also been suggested the CTH from Massdrop, and the Ember 2.

Also a side note, I have very good onboard audio with Realtek1220. In my "Speakers Properties" on Windows under "Advanced", I have 32 bit, 192000 Hz as my default format sample rate, do I really need a dac, or is this good? Thanks :)
 
Apr 14, 2018 at 12:37 PM Post #2 of 18
Considering your impressions with the HD 800 plugged into your motherboard, you'd probably appreciate any amp for it. I think if I were you I'd get a Chord Mojo and the La Figaro 332S. I am one of those who finds that warm sounding tube amps brings the most out of the HD 800. I hated the HD 800 when used with the HeadAmp GS-X MK2 (beastly balanced neutral solid state amp), but loved it when paired with the Woo Audio WA22.

http://www.yuking09.com/product/la-figaro-332s/

Total price for all this is just under $1,000. For DACs, you might want to read up on delta sigma DAC technology vs R2R (resistor ladder) vs FPGA (which Chord uses). In short, I've found that delta sigma DACs can't stand up to the other two when the other two are well implemented, and Chord DACs are always excellent from my experience. I'll never get a delta sigma DAC again and I'm probably going to exclusively buy Chord or Audio Note DACs for the rest of my life.
 
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Apr 14, 2018 at 12:58 PM Post #3 of 18
The Lyr 3 and CTH could be good options. I haven’t personally tried them so I won’t recommend them. I have used the Valhalla 2 with the HD800S and HD650, and I think that is very good pairing. Should apply to the HD800 as well. Probably one of the best amps you can get for the HD800 sub ~$1500.

Just keep in mind that if you were to switch to lower impedance headphones the Valhalla 2 would very likely not be a great match for them.

As far as Schiit DACs, they are quite good. Up to you whether you want to give them a chance or go for D/S DACs that might provide better squiggly lines and peace of mind.
 
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Apr 14, 2018 at 1:04 PM Post #4 of 18
CTH is tube hybrid, yes, but it's not really tubey than a solid-state. It sounds like your run of the mill amp, not any particularities with the tube or anything. I doubt that CTH will help the HD800 cold character any.

Setting it the highest bitrate and depth is not ideal. Have whatever music software change the depth and rate based on the original depth and rate of the track. WASAPI
 
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Apr 14, 2018 at 1:08 PM Post #5 of 18
As far as Schiit DACs, they are quite good. Up to you whether you want to give them a chance or go for D/S DACs that might provide better squiggly lines and peace of mind.


Brilliantly said! I would add that most that critical reviews are from those who have never heard them and must validate their inferior purchases.
 
Apr 14, 2018 at 8:03 PM Post #6 of 18
The Lyr 3 and CTH could be good options. I haven’t personally tried them so I won’t refommend them. I have used the Valhalla 2 with the HD800S and HD650, and I think that is very good pairing. Should apply to the HD800 as well. Probably one of the best amps you can get for the HD800 sub ~$1500.

Just keep in mind that if you were to switch to lower impedance headphones the Valhalla 2 would very likely not be a great match for them.

As far as Schiit DACs, they are quite good. Up to you whether you want to give them a chance or go for D/S DACs that might provide better squiggly lines and peace of mind.
I doubt I will be making any significant purchase audio wise in a really long time, so I don't think it would matter that much. I really wanted the Focal Clear's which are 55 OHM but I couldn't try them before buying them :/
 
Apr 15, 2018 at 5:37 AM Post #7 of 18
From what I am told tube amps are much better for the HD800 than solid state

Not necessarily, it's just that some amps (which tend to be solid state than tube) have a tendency to either be totally flat, which doesn't do any favours for how the HD800 has peaks in the treble; or if they distort at your listening levels, they get sharper, which makes those peaks worse. By contrast some tube amps tend to roll off the highs a little bit and do a little bit more of that when pushed, and OTL amps tend to do more of that, while they remain an attractive option considering you can find some that put in a lot of clean power at 300ohms while also having a boost effect in the midrange due to their high output impedance (note that this is not always the effect, ie, they'll affect low impedance headphones differently, not to mention that OTL amps have less power into low impedance loads).

You can find some solid state amps that don't get as sharp when pushed, like Meier and Violectric. As for OTL amps, the Little Dot MkII bloated the bass on my HD600 and while not totally bloating the HD800, still made for rather less controlled fast bass notes compared to, say, the Darkvoice DV336se.


I have no idea what balanced means.

If you mean the amplifier topology, the most basic thing to know is that it puts a separate L- and R- on the circuit instead of a shared GND, so you really can't just use a male XLR (amp end) to female TRS (headphone jack end) converter, as this will fry the balanced amp. In most cases it allows the amp circuit to produce more power, but that doesn't mean single ended amps can't do the same thing - look at how the Lyr2 makes more power at 32ohms than the Jotunheim (although the Jotunheim has more power at 300ohms; and by now the Lyr3 has even more power, but you still get more of a drop in output at 300ohms relative to what it can put into a 16ohm load).

The real thing you have to look out for (apart from using the proper cable) is that balanced drive having basically four amp circuits means you have more parts that can screw up later on (not that all SE amps have fewer parts). That also includes the cable, because if the amp doesn't have an optional single ended output, then you'd basically not be able to use it until you get a new balanced cable.

You can go with OTL tube amps if you don't have any plans to get low impedance, lower sensitivity headphones.


I personally find the Lyr 3 very attractive, with maybe a topping D30 because apparently schiit dacs are quite bad.

The way USB drivers develop, any of such USB DAC that doesn't use generic drivers to run its receiver chip can potentially get rendered obsolete when a new Windows update comes and the custom drivers don't work and doesn't get updated. The more common problem I've seen on Schiit DACs tend to have something to do with the drivers.


Also a side note, I have very good onboard audio with Realtek1220. In my "Speakers Properties" on Windows under "Advanced", I have 32 bit, 192000 Hz as my default format sample rate, do I really need a dac, or is this good?

You'll need an amp for more clean power, and then in turn you'd more likely (which of course is not "absolutely") get a cleaner signal into the amplifier using an external DAC, or a one-box DAC-HPamp (which also keeps the analogue signal path even shorter).


Not sure what my exact budget is but I wouldn't want to go past 1000$, and I'd rather keep it closer to 500$.

a. AudioGD NFB-11 or R2R-11
b. JDS Labs EL DAC or ODAC with Darkvoice DV336se; or WooAudio WA3
c. JDS Labs EL DAC or ODAC with Meier Jazz FF
d. Violectric V200 with optional DAC module
e. Meier DACcord FF and Classic FF
 
Apr 15, 2018 at 11:17 AM Post #9 of 18
Where can I find series of measurements showing FR of transformer coupled output of various tube amps?

Just Google each amp you're looking at and there might be some detailed technical review. Note that the differences from measurements other than output impedance tends to be minute that people dismiss them as inaudible, but in some cases, once level matched, you'd still encounter some minute though otherwise audible difference anyway.

Personally I'd still just go look at output power and output impedance to shortlist and then just double check with subjective reviews. And with tube amps, at least you don't have to de-solder and solder on anything - just swap out the tubes - in case you want to tweak it. If it's a little shrill just replace the cheap Shuguang or Sovtek tubes with Mullard, or NOS Mullard etc; a little bit of noise and too shrill, replace the preamp tubes with lower gain tubes.
 
Apr 15, 2018 at 8:59 PM Post #10 of 18
Not necessarily, it's just that some amps (which tend to be solid state than tube) have a tendency to either be totally flat, which doesn't do any favours for how the HD800 has peaks in the treble; or if they distort at your listening levels, they get sharper, which makes those peaks worse. By contrast some tube amps tend to roll off the highs a little bit and do a little bit more of that when pushed, and OTL amps tend to do more of that, while they remain an attractive option considering you can find some that put in a lot of clean power at 300ohms while also having a boost effect in the midrange due to their high output impedance (note that this is not always the effect, ie, they'll affect low impedance headphones differently, not to mention that OTL amps have less power into low impedance loads).

You can find some solid state amps that don't get as sharp when pushed, like Meier and Violectric. As for OTL amps, the Little Dot MkII bloated the bass on my HD600 and while not totally bloating the HD800, still made for rather less controlled fast bass notes compared to, say, the Darkvoice DV336se.




If you mean the amplifier topology, the most basic thing to know is that it puts a separate L- and R- on the circuit instead of a shared GND, so you really can't just use a male XLR (amp end) to female TRS (headphone jack end) converter, as this will fry the balanced amp. In most cases it allows the amp circuit to produce more power, but that doesn't mean single ended amps can't do the same thing - look at how the Lyr2 makes more power at 32ohms than the Jotunheim (although the Jotunheim has more power at 300ohms; and by now the Lyr3 has even more power, but you still get more of a drop in output at 300ohms relative to what it can put into a 16ohm load).

The real thing you have to look out for (apart from using the proper cable) is that balanced drive having basically four amp circuits means you have more parts that can screw up later on (not that all SE amps have fewer parts). That also includes the cable, because if the amp doesn't have an optional single ended output, then you'd basically not be able to use it until you get a new balanced cable.

You can go with OTL tube amps if you don't have any plans to get low impedance, lower sensitivity headphones.




The way USB drivers develop, any of such USB DAC that doesn't use generic drivers to run its receiver chip can potentially get rendered obsolete when a new Windows update comes and the custom drivers don't work and doesn't get updated. The more common problem I've seen on Schiit DACs tend to have something to do with the drivers.




You'll need an amp for more clean power, and then in turn you'd more likely (which of course is not "absolutely") get a cleaner signal into the amplifier using an external DAC, or a one-box DAC-HPamp (which also keeps the analogue signal path even shorter).




a. AudioGD NFB-11 or R2R-11
b. JDS Labs EL DAC or ODAC with Darkvoice DV336se; or WooAudio WA3
c. JDS Labs EL DAC or ODAC with Meier Jazz FF
d. Violectric V200 with optional DAC module
e. Meier DACcord FF and Classic FF
what do you think of https://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/prod...U37WV_i3de2r3ZbQv1KFWl0z6uNWkvdUaAliyEALw_wcB
 
Apr 16, 2018 at 8:40 AM Post #11 of 18

Haven't tried it but it gives specs as "at least 300mW at 32ohms." That can basically mean it could have only 300mW at 32ohms and then have as low as 50mW at 300ohms.

AudioGD NFB-11 costs less and has more specs listed, plus they have way more power - more than enough at 300ohms actually, and if you decide at any point to get any lower sensitivty, lower impedance headphone, it's got over 1watt per channel into 32ohms, so practically any headphone will work on it (except for older HiFiMans and electrostats). And it's not like that power comes at the expense of low distortion and low noise.

If you feel iffy about ordering from AudioGD there are other options. Schiit Vali2 or Magni3 plus Modi2 Uber if you plan on using low impedance headphones. If not (or you don't want to deal with Schiit's history of USB driver issues) look for a US dealer for Darkvoice and get the DV336se and get the JDSLabs ODAC to use with it.
 
Apr 17, 2018 at 3:48 AM Post #12 of 18
I agree with Protege on this. If you want to go SS go with Audio-GD if possible. They make great sounding kit for relatively good prices. On the tube side the aformentiond Ember II is a good choice since Garage1217 warranty and service is excellent. Not only that but it has many settings and such to really customize the sound it outputs to your phones (along with taking heavily away from the sound of the tube). Its really a great performer in its bracket and its very tube-esque based nature should lend itself to helping with the hardness of the peaks in the HD800 treble. I havent heard the new Lyr 3 but the previous Lyr carried over what I would call a slightly tubey nature. They do not take after the tubes as much as the Ember or really any other tube/hybrid amps on the market and it sounds more like a solid state with a 'touch' of tube magic.
 
Apr 17, 2018 at 4:29 PM Post #13 of 18
+1 on the Ember here. My 800S sounds excellent on it and there are several good sounding, affordable tubes out there for it. I tried a few other amps before I discovered the Ember.
If you go with a solid state amp, what you hear is what you get. If you go with a tube amp or a hybrid amp, you can change the sound signature with the tubes to match your preference or even the type of music that you are going to listen to.
 
Apr 18, 2018 at 7:18 AM Post #14 of 18
Just got a HD800, it's my first real headphone and I love it :3 But I currently have it plugged into my motherboard. I know you are supposed to have better amping for it to reach full potential.

From what I am told tube amps are much better for the HD800 then solid state, I have no idea what balanced means. Not sure what my exact budget is but I wouldn't want to go past 1000$, and I'd rather keep it closer to 500$.

I personally find the Lyr 3 very attractive, with maybe a topping D30 because apparently schiit dacs are quite bad. I have also been suggested the CTH from Massdrop, and the Ember 2.

Also a side note, I have very good onboard audio with Realtek1220. In my "Speakers Properties" on Windows under "Advanced", I have 32 bit, 192000 Hz as my default format sample rate, do I really need a dac, or is this good? Thanks :)

Feliks Audio Espressivo MKII + JDS Labs OL DAC would be my combo for your needs :)

IMG_20170810_145025-01.jpeg
 
Apr 20, 2018 at 11:43 PM Post #15 of 18
My HD800 has never sounded better than it does now, Using Jriver to electrocompanient ec-1 DAC, to MicroZotl-2 amp Amazing SQ, I can listen for hours I have noticed I can now listen to entire albums instead of just a couple songs
That is the highest praise I could bestow on any component / setup It is a bit outta your price range though.
 

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