[Uriel41]

Dear Head-Fi Community
 
I am looking for a different pair of headphones, but before I begin talking about what I'm looking for, I'll let you know what I listen to:
Electronica (mostly ambient) and some jazz.
 
Now I'm spending a lot of my time these days researching headphones. At this point, I use an O2 ODAC to drive a Beyerdynamic DT1350 and an Audeze EL-8 Open. I've had and sold the Audio Technica M50x and the Sennheiser HD598. Liked the former (despite the muddy bass and the tinny highs), didn't like the latter at all.
 
I absolutely adore my little Beyerdynamic, but it sounds small and it doesn't offer the openness and spaciousness I need for ambient electronica. So I got a good deal on a pair of EL-8O (480 dollars) and went for it. I really like the width and bass of the EL-8O, it's perfect for ambient electronica. However, it sounds very artificial and has crappy highs, which really bugs me when I listen to jazz. So I went to my retailer of choice and listened to the HD800, the Beyerdynamic T1 and the LCD 2 (i think it was the version with fazor technology, but i'm not certain). All of them were driven by an AMP/DAC by Marantz, worth about 1000 dollars.
Instruments sounded incredibly natural on the HD800 and the soundstage was phenomenal, but it lacked the sub-bass impact and intimacy I got from my EL-8O. When I tried the Beyerdynamic T1, I felt like it was a compromise between the HD800 and the Audeze Headphones... but it didn't manage to impress me in any particular way.
The LCD 2, to my surprised, had too much bass for my taste and lacked width. In opposition to a lot of head-fi members, i feel that compared to the LCD 2, the EL-8O has WAY more width and leaves the instruments quite a bit more room to breathe. So I preferred the EL-8O over the LCD 2, even though the LCD was more detailed and had better highs.
 
To summarize: I want to sidegrade, downgrade or upgrade from my EL-8O because the EL-8O sounds artificial and has ****ty highs. I am therefore looking for a headphone which combines the following three qualities:
 
- Quite a bit of sub-bass presence and good slam, but NOT as much bass as the LCD 2
- Natural sounding instruments and clean highs for jazz
- Lots of width and some depth for ambient electronica
 
I've tried the Hifiman 400i recently, but the mids were too forward and there was not enough sub-bass presence for my taste. Also, the amount of detail it shoved into my ears got fatiguing over time.
 
Can anyone give me some advice? Looking forward to reading your suggestions.
 
Lots of love from Switzerland,
Uriel

 

[Rhamnetin]

Oh man.  So I've heard most of the headphones you've heard, but it's hard to think of one that does everything you ask for, for a reasonable price.  What kind of price are we looking at here?  Since you're asking for the deepest bass extension, good bass slam, great treble extension, huge sound stage, and a smooth sound that doesn't strongly emphasize detail.  
 
The HiFiMan HE1000 hits all of those marks but the price is... a lot, and it's probably going to need a hell of a lot more than an ODAC and O2.  The only other options I can think of, neither of which I've heard, are the discontinued Sony MDR-R10 bass heavy (I've seen it for $8000 often) and especially the Sennheiser Orpheus HE90 which is probably the best headphone for you but can't really be found for anything but a five figure price.
 
I think you're going to have to stick with multiple headphones for now, until you can afford an HE1000 or even a used MDR-R10 bass heavy or Orpheus.

 

[Uriel41]

Hmm, i was afraid that this might be the answer. I might have to accept limitations and be happy with what I got instead of being so greedy for better sound. 
 
Budget wise... Ideally, I'd stay within the mid-fi section, so we're talking 400-800 bucks for the headphone and max. 400 for the amp/dac. If one of the summit-fi headphones can deliver what I'm looking for, then I'd consider saving up. I'll have to audition the HE1000 at some point, thanks for the suggestion!
 
I've also been thinking about the MrSpeakers Ether, have you heard it?

 

[Rhamnetin]

The Ether is one headphone I haven't heard.  If the HE-400i was too detailed for you though, then I imagine the Ether would be too, based on comparisons I've read between it and various HiFiMan cans.  The HE-500 almost would have been perfect for you, especially when it was $500, but it's even more detailed than the HE-400i.  Likewise, a well driven HE-6 would do everything right for you I think except for being too detailed.

 

[Rozenberg]

Have you considered entry level Stax? Even SRS-2170 should be enough, or if you could, try finding a used Stax headphones and amp separately.
I've auditioned all headphones you mentioned at Munich High End Show and so far, the most memorable were the Staxen, thus I went with the ol' SRS-2020. They're good with all music including my Jazz and even J-rock/electro.
Not everyone likes Stax of course but for me they don't have anything to complain about, soundwise. Maybe only the comfort and hassle.

 

[Rhamnetin]

  Have you considered entry level Stax? Even SRS-2170 should be enough, or if you could, try finding a used Stax headphones and amp separately.
I've auditioned all headphones you mentioned at Munich High End Show and so far, the most memorable were the Staxen, thus I went with the ol' SRS-2020. They're good with all music including my Jazz and even J-rock/electro.
Not everyone likes Stax of course but for me they don't have anything to complain about, soundwise. Maybe only the comfort and hassle.

 
They're probably going to be way too detailed for him, considering what he said about the HE-400i being too detailed, and considering electrostats (especially Stax) are generally much more detailed than other headphones.

 

[Rozenberg]

   
They're probably going to be way too detailed for him, considering what he said about the HE-400i being too detailed, and considering electrostats (especially Stax) are generally much more detailed than other headphones.

Right, missed that part, but for me detail isn't bad at all. I like details, more so when it's natural sounding detail so my SR-202 isn't fatiguing at all. It'll only wear you out because pretty uncomfy maybe.
Still worth a try though IMO

 

[Uriel41]

Yeah, I think what bothered me was the fact that I suffered from fatigue. If the detail hadn't been pushed into my face like that, I might have liked it. I'm very sensitive to sibilant/piercing highs and shouty mids, really don't deal well with that.

Thanks for the recommendation Rozeberg, I've never considered a stax headphone. Always thought they were out of my league, price wise. If I do get a chance to listen to one of them, I'll definitely do so.
 
And you're quite correct about ether Rham, it's quite detailed as far as I've heard. Still, I'd love to hear what it sounds like.
 
Perhaps the HD650 might be worth a try, though I've tried the HD600 and thought it was rather on the boring side.

 

[jodgey4]

Alpha Primes might work, even though they're closed, or the ZMF Vibro. AKG K712, DT880 + a good amp might also work.

 

[Rhamnetin]

The HD 650 sounds pretty similar to the EL-8 to me, so I think you'll have similar issues with it.  But if you can try before you buy, that would be great.
 
Quote:

  Alpha Primes might work, even though they're closed, or the ZMF Vibro. AKG K712, DT880 + a good amp might also work.

 
DT 880 would definitely be fatiguing for him.  K712 might be too.  I also doubt the Alpha Prime and DT 880 would have a big enough sound stage for him.  But then again, it's pretty clear sacrifices will be necessary until he can afford an HE1000.

 

[jodgey4]

The DT880 is basically the T1, and the K712 is basically like the HD800 in balance. He doesn't need the HE1000... but yes sacrifices will be necessary.

 

[Rhamnetin]

  The DT880 is basically the T1, and the K712 is basically like the HD800 in balance. He doesn't need the HE1000... but yes sacrifices will be necessary.

 
Well, he'll be the judge when he auditions the HE1000 for himself.  But based on what he said, I'm pretty sure the DT 880, T1, K712, and HD 800 would all be fatiguing for him.  Especially the Beyers.

 

[fotomeow]

OP and thread contributors: I'm going to throw in my 2 cents and want to be clear that I dont want to offend anyone.
(I'm not a pro headphone user, but I've played with hi end audio for 8 years, fwiw)
 
Heres the deal: I dont think the HPs are your main issue per se. All these HP rigs that we listen to are the final product of the synergy of the 
recording, gain/amp, and HPs (let alone the cables, etc). I listen to a lot of old recordings from the 60s and 70s. It doesn't matter if I have a 
pair of HE 1000's ($3000), its still going to sound as good or bad as the recording and the quality of amperage that it is receiving.
The amp in the middle of the chain may make the sound better or worse, it depends.
There are no "magic" HPs that make everything sound good. Its a fallacy. 
 
Lets go back and take a look at your audio chain:
1. Regardless of the recording, your O2 combo is only going to amplify what is already going thru it,
and your HPs will only tow the party line in conjunction with with any specific  attributes of the cans (e.g., more detail, more bass, etc)
2. The well-regarded O2 DAC combo has a solid rep of being neutral, transparent. But for what you are looking for in terms of the 
final sound signature, I'm not sure that the O2 will deliver. It may be one of the best "bang-for-buck" products out there, but it doesn't mean that it will give you what you are looking for.
I have the same/similar sensitivity to highs and punchy mids as you do, so I understand your position
3. If i were you, I would back up and refocus on your amp. I love details, sub-bass, full and rich sound. I could achieve all these things in my home audio. 
Now I am trying to reproduce that in a HP set up, and have had some success.
​4. Consider tubes for your amp. I didn't read above if you are wanting HPs for a home setup or transport. Im presuming it is a home set up due to the O2 DAC combo (desktop, right?), and the Open EL8s. If this is a desktop system, you have a lot of good options for tube amps at a reasonable cost (as opposed to the more expensive transport tube amps). 
5. I dont have any clear answers for you: e.g., "buy this, buy that, you'll be golden". but can offer some examples:
   A. there are users on HeadFi, at least one I know of, that use the Crack/Speedball with HD 650s. Eg: tube amp with Senns, which you generally appear to like.
   B. Myself: I am using the AKG K7XXs. b/c these HPs are more of a linear studio HP, I've wanted to try these with tubes, but i haven't been able to. i want tubes to "roll off the highs". to take away those highs that irritate my ears and smooths out punchy mids. In my meantime, I've bought a portable amp who's frequency only goes up to 20kHz. You will see DAPs and amps show that they go up to 50k Hz or 200kHz (e.g. Oppo HA2, etc). Why would I want an amp that goes so high it will give me fatigue? make sure to check the specs). 
I use a Hifi Man HM 650 DAP/amp. I bought it b/c it only goes up to 20kHz, and b/c it has a rep of being s/w 'warm', and b/c I can change amp cards, so I can find the best amp for my system, and b/c it has dual Wolfs 8740 DACs, which have a rep for being a lil bit warmer. All these factors keep the highs in check with up front but non-offending mids, and a solid bottom end that provides pretty good punch, but also sub-bass ambiance that does not overwhelm the vocals. 
   C. In my home audio, I have speakers that have ribbon tweeters. Using SS amps can make the ribbons sing in too high a frequency and gives me fatigue. So I use tube amps, which roll off the highs, and gives a sultry and enveloping high end. 
6. I dont believe that you have a binary choice of detailed sound vs not detailed sound. You can have some details with beautiful sound without hurting your ears, and with sub-bass, etc.
It is possible with the right synergy..
 
I hope this is useful, its more theory than a be-all, end-all, answer to your question. 
What I've learned in this hobby is that the more I understand about the theories of what I am doing (finding the best synergy b/w components), ​the easier it is to put together sound systems that fit my personal style. 
best of luck
GxG

 

[Uriel41]

Thanks a ton for your elaborate response, I'm sorry I didn't reply earlier. I've since been able to listen to almost all the high end HPs I wanted to listen to, including the HE1000. And... I've come to the conclusion that you're correct At the moment, I'm very happy with my Fidelio X2s, they deliver pretty much exactly what I want. Bass can be thuddish at times while the highs can be a tad edgy depending on the song. But overall, they deliver on all fronts. Now I've purchased a good cable to finish it all off. I'll want to compare the X2 to the senn hd650 at some point though
I'll also have to try tubes!

 

[fotomeow]

  Thanks a ton for your elaborate response, I'm sorry I didn't reply earlier. I've since been able to listen to almost all the high end HPs I wanted to listen to, including the HE1000. And... I've come to the conclusion that you're correct At the moment, I'm very happy with my Fidelio X2s, they deliver pretty much exactly what I want. Bass can be thuddish at times while the highs can be a tad edgy depending on the song. But overall, they deliver on all fronts. Now I've purchased a good cable to finish it all off. I'll want to compare the X2 to the senn hd650 at some point though
I'll also have to try tubes!

Glad you found it useful. Understanding how all this pieces work together is really the foundation to what we are all doing here, and trying to find our own piece of sonic nirvana within the constraints of our wallet. Ive read the X2s are or can be quite lush, at the expense of other sonic attributes that you have already discovered. Just a word of warning about using tubes .... most likely, you'll never turn back, but you will most likely be listening to the best sound you ever have in your life. Portable tube amps can be had for under $500.