[ramachandra]

Hello Giannis,
 
How are you? Any progress on your Z since?

 

[giannis89]

  Hello Giannis,
 
How are you? Any progress on your Z since?

 
I tried to fix the board several times, replaced a bunch of things but the amp chip always ended up fried as soon as i supplied with current. Never game me a chance to see what was actually wrong with the board. I bought a used one some years ago, i successfully changed all opamps and caps and there was definitely an upgrade in audio quality. i ended up selling them a couple of years ago though. 

 

[Foxer]

  On the other X-Fi cards there is one decoupling capacitor for the positive one for the negative input so that is 2 caps/channel and 4 caps/OpAmp. You find loads of ELNA or Nichicon on eBay often cheaper. The different plastic cover on ELNAs are common, not because they are fake or inferior quality. Use Silmic II for the decoupling or Nichicon KZ. For the rest use Silmic II to get nice warm analog or Cerafine to get a colder precise sound. Both of them will make the sound warmer, and I recommend the Cerafines if your amplifier will get a similar mod or loaded with ELNAs already, otherwise the Silmic II is the best you can get, according me and most people.
If there is a cap on the digital VDD pin 9, the solid electrolyte Sanyo OS-CON proved itself to be excellent in external DACs, to bring the circuits to the next level of clarity.
 
The crystal is only a part of the clock, the rest need to be just as good. The lot of 1 and 0 is nice on paper, in reality the same rules of physics apply for analog and digital circuits. If we looking the history of the digital computers, there are mountains of technical challenges had to be overcome to achieve the clean, precise signals, using never perfect components, under never perfect conditions. The main chip is react to the changes and that is normal. The schematic from it is well kept secret, and certainly go light years beyond my understanding.

Because i was so sure the MOD result was gonna be all sunshine and butterflies, i didn't bother to take pictures of the "naked" PCB when i desoldered all the CAPs and OpAmps  (a decision which i DEEPLY regret). If i had done that, i would have had everything much easier now.. 
 
After some analysis with the magnifying glass over the now very crowded PCB, and also checking the pinout schematics of the DACs, i came to these conclusions:
- at least 2 (if not all 4) of the 47uF caps for every OpAmp, are actually on the signal path between the DAC and OpAmp, not Opamp and line-out jacks (as i previously thought), so these are actually what my friend said should be the most influential upon the sound..
- The 3rd line of caps (the ones that belong to the DACs..( 1x47uf & 1x100uF for each DAC)) are actually (one) for some sort of voltage reference or something like that, and the other is for power supply to the analog part of the DAC.
I could barely make out the traces on the PCB using the magnifying glass, so i'm not exactly 100% sure; but this is what i came up with.
 
(Regarding what you mentioned about VDD on pin 9; I only have VD (V-in for Digital side of the DAC) on pin 7.. I will check to see if there is any electrolytic cap there, but i think there are only ceramic SMDs on that side of the DAC. )
 
Also, i managed to try out a combination of a 0.15uF WIMA ppFilm + 10uF Silmic II on the V+/- of the OpAmp.. and to my surprise, the music sounded even worse.
I don't know if you (or anyone else for that matter) had the possibility of a side-by-side comparison when doing upgrades (other than just using human memory); but it seems to me that the more SILMICs II i use, the more detail i loose.
Every time i listen ONLY to the X-Fi by itself, it seems to sound more awesome with every passing moment. That is until i set it side by side with my trusty Audigy 2, and i can literally hear the X-Fi starting to get it's ass kicked by the Audigy. And this has been after burn-in. So yeah.. Human memory.. not that great.
I even got my girlfriend to do some listening tests (just to check that i'm not crazy), and she felt the same way. 
Accentuated mid-to-low bass, which felt a bit fake.. Loss of detail.. Numbed dynamics.. Boring highs.. 
 
So yesterday I/we gave it a final hearing, and then removed the WIMA+ELNA combo.. and sure thing , the better sound came back.
Now i'm not saying that it was awful to listen to.. It was a more "rounded" and homogeneous sound.. and i'm sure many people would have nothing to complain about..  But when i put this 500$ card side by side to a 50$ one, and the 50$ one sings nicer; to me that's a sign that these capacitors kinda' fall into the category of over-hyped products... (not to say they don't have their place, in a system that sounds too harsh or metallic).. but the 16 ones i replaced for the opamps, sound almost exactly the same as they did before the tenths of hours of burn-in that they got..  
 
A good discussion to follow, here: http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/parts/171907-elna-silmic-ii-elna-cerafine-5.html#post3500028
I'm seriously reconsidering using Panny FM's for the DACs, and also replacing the 2x 220uF@25V SILMICs with Panny FM's. They're easier to find, fit better, have VERY good ESR so they're perfect for power supply side, AND they might reduce the blurring of the details.
It's a 500$ card with studio-grade DACs, for crying out loud.. I want details!!  ))
 
As a funny side-note, I went to get my driver's licence renewed today. And had to go through all the medical exams and such.. and obviously, one of them was a hearing exam.. And turns out I still have very good hearing for my age (30) !!
So i wand my details!!!! .. while i can still hear 'em ))
 
Today i will add back just the WIMA Cap and see where that stands..  Hope better than a 90's cassette; coz that's where the sound was at last time. 

 

[Foxer]

Ok. So the WIMA-mk4  0.15uF@250V PolyPropylene Film cap is back on the OpAmp.
These are my impressions:
(based on "stars" rating)
 
w/o  any cap on the OpAmp: [4 stars]
w/    only the wima cap:        [4.5 stars]
w/ both wima and 10uf Silmic II: [3 stars] .. (so @pelopidas's advice regarding the silmic on the Opamp, didn't really work out on the Elite Pro )
 
 
Real life impressions:
(compared to no cap on the Opamp)
 
some detail came back 
some portions of some songs feel a bit more bright
(and this might be just my imagination) but i feel there's a little more bass.. the good kind of bass.. bass that's in the right place, not flooding over the mids.  
 
Now i'm really curious to see how Panasonic FM's will behave as power caps for the OpAmps (in place of the two (huge) 220uF Elnas). 
If they will do ok as power supply caps for analog; i think i'll use them for the DACs (analog side) also.. 
Fingers crossed

 

[pelopidas]

Thats a serious mod

 
You are more courageous than I would be, so hats off to you.
Finding the right cap is not so formulaic as saying "elna is the best". I have found some rules of thumb though that serve as a good starting point, but experimentation is key. Any capacitor that feeds the power pins of a dac benefits from low esr, because digital is fast. This is not music yet, just 1s and 0s being turned into music. So for these positions I use Panasonic SEPF. They have crazy low esr and really high ripple current. I have also tested them in audio positions and they sound transparent and correct. These are very good caps.
For power supply to opamps I generally like Silmic II because now you are only dealing with voltage swings in the audio frequency and esr is really not the determinate factor. What I like about the Silmics is that they provide great separation of the instruments and, in my opinion, the blackest background. I am only talking a capacitor from + to - on the opamp. It serves as a small reservoir that is sufficient for the opamp to reach its dynamic potential.
This is not decoupling. Decoupling (for power) is going from + to ground and from - to ground. For that a small 0.1 film cap is sufficient. I have found that a 0.1 or similar small value is not enough to make a difference in the whole audio range when put + to -. A voltage swing in the 10khz range is such a small thing compared to bass which is a relatively huge wave in comparison. Thats why those small caps clean up the very top end but dont really have a bigger effect on the lower end. Nonetheless, the trebble by itself is a big effect.
I am not familiar with the topology of your board but it does not look like it has output capacitors. In the picture on the first page of this thread Ramachandra recommends a Tonarex for the opamp supply (100uf 50V). I would not put a tonarex anywhere near the opamps. That would be a good spot for a Silmic.
I am not sure what the function of all the caps behind the opamps are. In the picture it says they are decoupling caps. Does this mean it is going from + and - to ground? If so, put the Panasonic SEPF here. If decoupling here means putting a capacitor in the signal path of the audio to block any DC.. then I would probably put SEPF there too. (I hate caps in the signal path though. But sometimes its unavoidable)
Also, remember that all caps must burn in and Silmics, no joke, take at least 100 hours. They sound bad, not just neutral but really bad sometimes untill they are burned in and become lovely.
 
Again, hats off to such a big mod !

 

[Foxer]

@pelopidas
Thank you! 

 But i was inspired by many more other brave people here, who've done much much more than me. @ramachandra , @trodas and the incredible @bichi (who has done intensive work on the Elite Pro), are just a few to mention.
 
The card mentioned at the start of this thread is one of the "Xtreme" models.
Mine is an "Elite Pro", this one here:
: 
The first 2 rows of 47uF caps (from left to right) are in the signal path between the DACs and OpAmps --4 for each dac-opamp pair. (i replaced all 16 of these with SILMIC II)
The 3rd row, is for power supply to the analog side of the DACs (1x100uF + 1x47uF for each DAC). (haven't replaced those yet)
And the 2 lonely 220uF caps in the far-left, are for power supply to the opamps. (i replaced these 2 with SILMIC II)
 
The OPA1602, doesn't have dual power (V+/V- & GND), it only has V+ & GND (just like the card's original ones)
 
You said:
" If decoupling here means putting a capacitor in the signal path of the audio to block any DC.. then I would probably put SEPF there too."
You would actually put Panasonic SEPF (a polymer cap) on the audio signal path? Aren't those limited to a narrower frequency than the electrolytics?! I know solid polymer should be avoided in signal path (granted, the SEPF are Organic polyner.. but still)
 
The modifications i did, brought back the listening pleasure on this card, but kinda blurred some of the details. I don't think the Opamps are to blame, so that only leaves the silmics. @bichi for example, ended up using SMD ceramic caps in place of the 16 caps that are in the signal path (from dac to opamp).
But for the moment, i was thinking of replacing the 2 silmics (that are powering the opamps), with some Panasonic FMs. And if they sound good and restore some detail, maybe do the same with the 3rd row of caps that are powering the DACs.
 
Now i know you said the silmic II are good for powering analog parts, but to me (and some others) it feels that they rob some detail. 
 
Also:
"What I like about the Silmics is that they provide great separation of the instruments and, in my opinion, the blackest background. I am only talking a capacitor from + to - on the opamp. It serves as a small reservoir that is sufficient for the opamp to reach its dynamic potential." 
 
For me , believe it or not, putting a 10uF silmicII + the 0.15uF wima on the power pins of the opamp, did the exact opposite 

 
It DID bring in some bass (which felt a bit dodgy at times), but certainly wasn't worth loosing even more details. So i left only the 0.15uF wima.. which seems to do a good job of restoring some details and acoustics (and i can almost swear that it helped with the bass too.. feels more involved, more rounded and not all over the place)
Maybe the two 220uF silmics that are already on the board (for all 4 opamps), do a sufficient job.. Maybe putting more of them is just going overboard.. i don't know.. 
 
Regarding burn-in.. Since i replaced all the caps previously mentioned, they've been run for @ 40 hours.. and tbh, i don't sense any real difference.. (except for maybe some bass improvement)
The 10uF one has only been run for about 20hours
 
---
 
later edit:
I also want to recap my PIONEER VSX-D557 amplifier.. and i was thinking to use ELNAs.. but now i'm kind of skeptic..
Dunno what to use..  Maybe wait for a true 100+ hours of burn-in and see how they turn out..

 

[pelopidas]

Hey Foxer,
 
I know this sounds counter intuitive right now but just wait for the full 100 hour minimum burn in on the Silmics. The burn in requirement is very very real. Like many others before me have noted, you cannot really evaluate the sound of silmics before then because the sound can go from cohesive to muddy to dull to all kinds of awful that makes you want to pull them out immediately.  Put some music on and let it play all night for several nights untill you have your 100 hours. Once you are 100+ hours then do a critical listen.
The same goes for film caps and organic polymers. They take time to burn in, settle, form or whatever people want to call it. I too was skeptical about this before repeated experience proved it to be so.

 

[ramachandra]

The XtremeMusic with the Elna Tonerex was the first version, the picture could use an update. I completely settled with Silmic II, Cerafine, Nichicon KZ since. If one day their production stop without proper alternative and they become crazy expensive, (like it happen with Black Gate) then I maybe buy Panasonic. There is always some exceptions when one type more suitable for the job than the other, or often the combination of 2-3 give the best result. In the external DACs I'm using, I often add big film capacitors to the electrolytes in the analog PSU. The 0.1uF films are common in the basic designs, and very little what they do for the listener. From 1uF when they really start to make a positive impact, but they often cut back the dynamic of the ELNAs.
I'm mad for details and I love headphones, despite my best efforts with Amps and speakers, because the degradation is always there. A good source is essential, but the rest of the audio chain is not negligible at all. It's a bit like my PC can run as fast as the slowest part(s) let it. I'm not sure I found the right photos from the VSX-D557 inside, but I wouldn't expect to find it on an audiophile's wishlist. No doubt abut reputation or reliability just the complexity and components. If different capacitors give a better result with this amp maybe not strange under the circumstances. There is one way to find out.

 

[Foxer]

This is the closest i could find to my pioneer's inside schematic https://link-4share.com/download/QtmZ2B68/pioneer_vsx-d607s_rrv1897_pdf.html 
It's for the D607s, but it looks identical to mine.. and when i search for mine, all the websites come up with this schematic.. maybe it's a rebrand or something. 
Your impression or advice?  
 
In other news; I borrowed a pair of SENNHEISER HD595 headphones from a friend today, and gave a better listen to the Elite Pro..
And what can i say.. my jaw almost dropped! Immediately i thought to myself: "there's no f-ing way the Audigy 2 is gonna sound this good!"
I turned on the other computer, pullet out the same song (flac format of course), using the same player & I gave it a listen...... and immediately i got pissed.
You could probably guess what was the result.
 
I guess i'll let those elnas burn in properly... 

 

 

[ramachandra]

That is a correct headphone you got, could be handy if you able to use it while you working on the card. What I recommend is to try to use an audiograde cap for the X-Fi chip, maybe the previous modifiers was right, and really make a difference. Do the rest of the mod, don't stop in half way. I'm certain about the success, because this far nobody complained. The remaining Jamicons or slightly better G-Luxon caps arround the DAC + the crystal is great for: one thing. Friend of mine worked on Audigy cards, he never mentioned they are turned out better than any of the X-Fi cards.
No point go into the Amp yet, or at all. There are easier or better alternatives.

 

[Foxer]

@ramachandra
yeah, i agree on your "perspective" of the jamicon & g-luxon caps ))
I've got my mind set on changing almost (if not, every) cap on the card.
I still have to settle on what caps i need/want to try for every zone, and also some other parts for some other projects.. so when i'll place the order, i'll place it for everything. But i've been running low on spare time lately.
 
By the way, upon hearing the moded elite pro; a friend got bent on getting one too, and giving it to me to mod it for him also..
And he found a really cheap one.. How cheap? FREE cheap

It's a slightly different version than mine: it has only one X-RAM chip on the front. None on the back. And it looks to be a 32mb (not 64). Dunno for sure

 
But it does have a problem though: the microphone input doesn't work (loud hisssss when enabled even with MIC not connected).
And if it's switched to "digital out" instead of "MIC in", the hiss goes away, but the music still distorts a bit.
(Just to be clear, this happens on all analog outputs. Haven't tried on the digital).
 
Also my original drivers/applications CD doesn't work with it.
I can only manually install just the driver and make it work.. but the main installer says there is no x-fi present in the system. So i can't install the whole applications/utilities suite.
Only the package form the CREATIVE website installs without problems.
 
There's no visible signs of damage on the card; so i was thinking of pulling capacitors and measuring them one by one.. Especially those around the DSP's power supply, and ADC..

 

[Foxer]

accidental double post
-----------------------
deleted

 

[z5500 digital]

Ramachandra, have you tried "Audigy RX" ?
 
It is often recommended.
And even saying that sounds better than the x-fi titanium.
http://forum.ixbt.com/topic.cgi?id=12:56186

 

[ramachandra]

No I haven't. I'm not surprised if it is because the 600-ohm headphone amplifier. Perhaps more pleasant to listen compared to the Creative's beloved JRC4556 on the front channel. The rest of the components is in a different arrangement but seems identical to Titanium and I would not expect much from those. The characteristic of older main chip or the settings in the driver is maybe another factor.
 
Still, if an RX show up one day it will certainly not escape my soldering iron. 

 

 

[TimHKG]

It's a great topic anyhow! However, what I'm going to ask is a bit out of topic. It's not anything related to X-Fi's, but Audigy 2 & Audigy 2 ZS. I'd bought them for more than 10 years and had them modded recently. Since I'll have some AVX 0.1uf 50v and 0.01uf 50v ceramic capacitors, and also WIMA FKP 02 0.001uf 63VDC capacitors several days later, and would like to put them onto the two cards for some more positive effects if it's possible.
 
In order to get the best effects, can anyone circle on which locations of the cards where those above mentioned AVX & WIMA capacitors should be putting onto? Thanks in advance!