[Justice Strike]

if you are considering the hd600 then atleast also consider the updated hd650

and still the mdr-sa5000 is a steal when you consider the perfect precision it shows.

 

[LevA]

like other people on this thread I also agree that what you are doing is very nice & admirable.

Unfortunately, having no experience with full size headphones (one of the downside of living on a small tropical island in the pacific) I can't be much help in regards to advice on your setup. luckily for you many people on the site are very helpful and seems like you already got some very good advice for your mothers setup.

However, having said that, just want to ask if headphone setup is definitely a good idea for your mother? I hope you don't take this the wrong way but just would like to point out that not everyone likes listening to music with headphones (especially classical music). as an example, I can hardly get my wife to listen to music on headphones even though the sound is much better than our average speaker set.
Also keep in mind that with headphone + amp set your mother has to be in a stationary position, which might be very different from her usual habbit of having the music in the background and move around the room or house. from what you said she does sound like a serious classical music lover and most likely will not be a problem.

a good speaker set, as you said most likely will cost considerably more, might be a better investment of your money if there is a chance that she might not use it or enjoy listening through headphones.

There are many on this site who are really knowledgeable with speaker sets and might be able to offer you some good advice on how to set one up according to your budget.

Again what you are doing for your mother is really wonderful and hope you will be well rewarded for your generosity and thoughtfulness by seeing your mother enjoy her classical music.

 

[CYoung234]

Quote:

Originally Posted by rokkyboy /img/forum/go_quote.gif Hello, Head-fiers! The background for my 'search' is this. My mother's only joy in life, actually the only money she spent on her self, was Toronto Symphony Orchestra's season pass. Our family immigrated to Canada and my single mother went through really a lot.. her only escape was classical music but since last year when she filed for her bankruptcy, she is working full-time and does not have the 'room' in her life to enjoy her only hobby. my mother listens to classical music and aria Rok

This is nice of you to do for your mother, first off.

A couple of questions for you. Do you think your mother would be happy with music that is not live? It was not clear to me from your post if your mother listens to the radio or to CDs now, but since you did mention that she used to have a season pass to the Toronto Symphony, it sounds as if she prefers live music. IF that is the case, you will have a very difficult time finding a decent substitute - I have NEVER heard a sound system that I would prefer over live music in person. I have pretty decent equipment, both for my home stereo system as well as headphones. IF her problem is time, then I can understand. IF the problem is funding, maybe your best choice would be to give her a season ticket to the symphony. If you live in the same city, perhaps you could get one for yourself too and take her to the symphony?

If you still think that a headphone system would be a good choice for her, I would start small, and not pay a huge amount of money for something that may not get used that much. Also, generally speaking, if you cannot hear the differences, there is no reason to pay for better equipment. A number of my brass teachers were happy with just a mono FM radio - they heard what they needed to without any serious equipment! For classical, the AKG K701 or Senn HD600 would be good and relatively inexpensive choices. I personally use AKG K501's and love them for classical (I listen mostly to large symphony orchestra stuff), and they do not need that good of an amp to sound very good. However, the K501 is not in production anymore, so they are harder to find (although there is a pair in the sales forum right now). I have never heard the K701/2 (I auditioned between the K501 and K601 when I was shopping).

Personally, I would drop the budget to around $1000 max and pick up a modest amp with a pair of K701's. You can drive that right from her computer or CD player as the source. If your mother enjoys using a setup like that, you can always help her trade up later as she learns more about what she likes and doesn't like with that setup.

 

[ddoyle777]

Rok,

A couple of thoughts here.

1. Will your Mother actually wear headphones? I tried to do something similar (but with much more modest goals) and she stated outright that she would never wear headphones. I ended up with a cheap stereo with which she was delighted.

2. I'd go with the K701s for this reason - I find them very comfortable. I have both 701s and HD 650s and the 650s are like a vise on my head. I find that I reach for the 701s much more often than I do the HD650s. They are both awesome for any kind of music and I listen to classical 80% of the time.

Good luck!

 

[rokkyboy]

Wow!

Thank you everyone for your kind responses and thoughtful comments.

This morning, over breakfast I talked to my mother (carefully not to give away the surprise) about going to live concerts and such. I told her I always wondered why she enjoyed it so much and wanted to try out myself. I asked her what is so different about going to live concerts, what she enjoys about classical music and opera.

She mentioned that it was a combination of certain things. She likes to go to actual concerts because not only the sound is better, but because she feels more direct and intimate with the music. She mentioned that she feels as if they are 'playing for' her instead of 'listening to' them. Also, she likes the visual aspect as well. As she can actually see the conductor and musicians dive into their world, she said that it was extra treat. She also said that the reason she likes classical music is because of the depth of the music itself and the story it tells, not just the sound. She has been listening to classical since childhood so knowing the background of different composers and their life really enriches the experience.

Her hours are 6pm to 10pm~11pm and she works 7 days a week. It is quite difficult for her to take a day off because she is the only one who can close the store at the moment. I tried to find afternoon tickets from ticketmaster but they are quite rare.. they are available, the most good concerts are in the evenings.

So far, best option seems to be K701,K501,HD600,HD650,SA5000, HE-5, DT880. I will purchase between K701, HD600, and HD650, whatever I can get first from this forum =] and will go with Head-Direct EF5. It seems that to lower the cost on the amp, and trying all of the above headphone eventually to find the 'right' one is the way to go.

LevA has commented that speaker may be another choice I should consider, for various reasons and I do agree with that. I'm not sure what the experience between headphones and speakers are, whether there can be people who prefer headphones over speakers, or people generally agree that a good speaker will deliver better sound than good headphones.

If it is a matter of preference, I guess I should just start with the headphones and build my way up to speakers. Do speakers need different amps? or can EF5 support both headphones and speakers?

I live in Toronto and I am living with my mother atm because of work (closer, and saves much time on preparing lunch

I just checked her audio and she has Yamaha A-520 amp, Yamaha receiver/tuner for radio, and Technics CD player. The speakers are not that good, they were $50 tower speakers that my friend once bought from a flea market.

To upgrade from the current speaker system my mother has, is the amp sufficient enough?

If I spend 500 for headphones, 500 for the amp, and another 200 for SACD player, I can spend extra 1000 for DAC and speakers.

How important is DAC? are they a must? =]


My option 1. get whatever headphones (K701,K501,HD600,HD650,SA5000,DT880) I can get by Christmas from Head-fi (anywhere else?) + EF5 amp + PS Audio DLIII and the rest of the budget into CDs.

Option 2. Headphones + amp and the rest for her speaker system, and maybe a DAC if it is important

Thank you sooo much everyone for your very very kind support and warm comments =]

I should let my mother see this thread after Christmas!!
To show her that the end result was helped by many many people, not just me.


Cheers!


Rk

 

[AmanGeorge]

I don't know how good the Technics CD player is. If it's decent, then a DAC isn't necessary in either setup unless you want to be able to hook the system up to a computer.

I think in general, folks here will say that speakers sound better than headphones - if you buy this and you think speakers may be a better option, I'd go whole hog with speakers instead of trying to do both speakers and headphones.

Re: the EF5, it isn't a speaker amplifier - speakers will require their own separate amp.

 

[fishski13]

Quote:

Originally Posted by stokitw /img/forum/go_quote.gif Hi, I simply share my system with you. 95% of my CD collection and 85% of my digital files is classical. I'm very happy with my current system, and I think it barely fit in your budget. Phone: Grado GS-1000 (used one is around $600-$700) DAC/AMP: Grace design m902 (the new one costs $1595) Source1: laptop Source2: Sony SCD-CE595 (An entry level 5CD SACD player, try to grab refurbish one from Sony outlet $9x) Connection: 1. laptop -- SPDIF (coaxial cable) -- m902 2. SACD player -- Toslink -- m902 3. SACD player -- RCA interconnet -- m902 1 and 2 are transmitting digital signal, so you don't need to go for very expensive cables. 2 is for the Redbook CDs from the SACD player. 3 is for the SACD signal from the SACD player. Simply put $100 for 1+2+3 is more than enough. 1&2 utilize Grace m902's DAC and amp, while 3 use the SACD player's DAC and use m902 as amp only. I'm very satisfied with this setup. The only complaint is that now 3 is not as good as 1 and 2 because of the difference in DAC. GS-1000 is great for classical music. For mid and small scale recordings, you can easily enjoy them from GS-1000 without worrying too much about the system. Most of my effort in finding a great system for GS-1000 is for dealing with large scale recordings. The current setting works great for large scale recording. (especially connection 1&2) My setup utilize the multi-function of Grace m902. If you made up your mind in source, you probably want to go the other way. For using CD as the main media, You can grab a decent CD or SACD player (with budget $400-$500) along with an decent amp (again, just grab some interconnect within $100 price mark is more than sufficient). Even if you don't want to spend too much on the rest of system, I would still suggest GS-1000 as you main phone. Without proper amplification it sounds lay back, which is not a bad thing for one in you mom's age.

i've not heard this combo, but was going to recommend something similar: Benchmark DAC1 USB and HD650. like the Grace m902, the Benchmark is like a Swiss Army knife, and all in a small package. i own the Benchmark DAC1 and owned the HD650 (stock cable). they made for a good pairing. my classical preferneces include Opera, Mahler, and Beethoven - i feel like i need to expand my horizons though

. the HP amp in the DAC1 USB is maybe better?

my only other recommendations would include DIY products, but these can be too "hair-shirt" for those that aren't audio dorks.

 

[DavidMahler]

It's just a hair (few hundred) more expensive than your required price....but this is in my opinion the best you could do for around that price....

HD800 ($1400)
and the combined DAC/AMP Grace 902 (1600)

 

[wavoman]

My advice is totally different -- sorry to be late to the party.

I understand why your mom likes concerts. And I understand her need to be drawn in. I grew up going to the Philadelphia Orchestra. I also understand the limits of her hearing (I am 61).

There are many terrific concert and opera DVDs where you watch the performance. Do not miss these. They will leave her spellbound. You need a universal player: CDs, SACDs, DVDs .. the (non-BluRay) Oppo stands out. It is cheap and the DAC is excellent. Not full audiophile, true, but close enough. You take the video signal into her computer monitor or TV, and the audio (analog) in to her headphone amp (we'll get to that in a moment). You have digital SPDIF output (coax and optical) on the Oppo so you can upgrade to a better DAC later.

Now for classical music that surrounds and seduces you, used Stax or used HE60s will put all the dynamic HPs listed here to shame. The GS1000 will come close, but its signature is not a good match to the hearing curve of a 50+ person. The HE5's are possible -- only heard them for a few moments. The HD600 will beat the HD650 on classical every time.

But scour the earth for a used Stax Lambda Sig, 404, or better yet Senn Baby Orpheus, HE60. Used is the only way to go. Forget the Senn HEV70, a poor amp. Look for a used Stax 717 amp or even a lower model solid state used Stax amp (e.g. SRM-1/MK-2), for either the used Stax phones or the HE60 (ignore the slight bias voltage mis-match .. means nothing here).

Watching an opera DVD over component or HDMI video while listening to the audio on baby Orpheus ... this will bring tears to her eyes.

My mom is 91. She listens to opera every day on a Bose system I got her (hey, she asked for Bose). Two other ladies in the home listen along with her outside her door sitting on a bench in the hallway (she doesn't like them and won't invite them in). I know she knows they're there since she turns the volume way up. I invited them in but got in trouble. Don't argue with your mom!

Note added: I see a Stax 717 amp and Stax 4070 HP set -- would be great! -- sold for $1575 on AudiogoN in October

 

[DavidMahler]

Quote:

Originally Posted by wavoman /img/forum/go_quote.gif My advice is totally different -- sorry to be late to the party. I understand why your mom likes concerts. And I understand her need to be drawn in. I grew up going to the Philadelphia Orchestra. I also understand the limits of her hearing (I am 61). There are many terrific concert and opera DVDs where you watch the performance. Do not miss these. They will leave her spellbound. You need a universal player: CDs, SACDs, DVDs .. the (non-BluRay) Oppo stands out. It is cheap and the DAC is excellent. Not full audiophile, true, but close enough. You take the video signal into her computer monitor or TV, and the audio (analog) in to her headphone amp (we'll get to that in a moment). You have digital SPDIF output (coax and optical) on the Oppo so you can upgrade to a better DAC later. Now for classical music that surrounds and seduces you, used Stax or used HE60s will put all the dynamic HPs listed here to shame. The GS1000 will come close, but its signature is not a good match to the hearing curve of a 50+ person. The HE5's are possible -- only heard them for a few moments. The HD600 will beat the HD650 on classical every time. But scour the earth for a used Stax Lambda Sig, 404, or better yet Senn Baby Orpheus, HE60. Used is the only way to go. Forget the Senn HEV70, a poor amp. Look for a used Stax 717 amp or even a lower model solid state used Stax amp (e.g. SRM-1/MK-2), for either the used Stax phones or the HE60 (ignore the slight bias voltage mis-match .. means nothing here). Watching an opera DVD over component or HDMI video while listening to the audio on baby Orpheus ... this will bring tears to her eyes. My mom is 91. She listens to opera every day on a Bose system I got her (hey, she asked for Bose). Two other ladies in the home listen along with her outside her door sitting on a bench in the hallway (she doesn't like them and won't invite them in). I know she knows they're there since she turns the volume way up. I invited them in but got in trouble. Don't argue with your mom! Note added: I see a Stax 717 amp and Stax 4070 HP set -- would be great! -- sold for $1575 on AudiogoN in October

First off, God Bless your mom that's great, I wish my 89 year old grandmother was interested in music still....her hearing is gone basically.... but aside from that.....

I notice you don't really bring up the HD800 which is essentially (to me) a Classical Music headphone. I know it can do other things well, but for classical music I've never heard anything better.....and I hear they sound like an improved HE60 which is a headphone you recommend....have you heard the HD800 and have decided to intentionally not recommend them? The only headphones I have heard in a similar price point to the HD800 is the Edition 8, UE10 and my R10s which I think are a wonderful headphone but honestly not as good at classical music as the HD800 and is obviously about 4 times the price these days.

 

[rokkyboy]

Thanks everyone for the support!!

I have received many many great advices, and I really appreciate all of them.
Some were above my budget and some were very hard to find on Audiogon or here at Head-fi. I also checked e-bay, but didn't help much either. Out of many options I was given, EF5 AMP, HD650, HD600, K701/2, SA5000, DT880, HD800, HE60/HEV70, HE60 + Stax AMP, etc. (Sorry if I have missed some!)

I've decided to with more flexible phones (lower price) so it is easier to resell and try other phones. I've read good reviews about EF5 so unless someone else suggest other amp around the pricerange 400~600, I will go with EF5 and get two headphones, and an SACD player, probably OPPO since it was suggested.

Then, I will see which phones my mother likes best out of (hopefully) all of the above, and try different AMP, and DAC.

If she thinks headphones are simply 'not' for her, I will work on her speaker system as much as I can. I guess I'll have to become a regular head-fier myself =]

I have PMed few in Audiogon and here in head-fi, so I'll update on what phones I have purchased.

If anyone lives around Toronto area and knows where I can listen to various Headphones and speakers, it would be much appreciated.

Also, what other online audio equipment classified sites are there? where else should I look?

Thanks everyone
Truly appreciated!! =]

 

[AmanGeorge]

Head-Fi and Audiogon are the two big classified sites - the only other major source I would check is eBay, which is a great source especially for headphones.

I would do a little more research into what SACD player to get - the Oppo I know is a good transport (transports output a digital signal to an external DAC) but may not be as good as an integrated solution (using the Oppo internal DAC). There is probably a better SACD unit if you don't intend to get an external DAC.

 

[limpidglitch]

Quote:

Originally Posted by rokkyboy /img/forum/go_quote.gif Thanks everyone for the support!! I have received many many great advices, and I really appreciate all of them. Some were above my budget and some were very hard to find on Audiogon or here at Head-fi. I also checked e-bay, but didn't help much either. Out of many options I was given, EF5 AMP, HD650, HD600, K701/2, SA5000, DT880, HD800, HE60/HEV70, HE60 + Stax AMP, etc. (Sorry if I have missed some!) I've decided to with more flexible phones (lower price) so it is easier to resell and try other phones. I've read good reviews about EF5 so unless someone else suggest other amp around the pricerange 400~600, I will go with EF5 and get two headphones, and an SACD player, probably OPPO since it was suggested. Then, I will see which phones my mother likes best out of (hopefully) all of the above, and try different AMP, and DAC. If she thinks headphones are simply 'not' for her, I will work on her speaker system as much as I can. I guess I'll have to become a regular head-fier myself =] I have PMed few in Audiogon and here in head-fi, so I'll update on what phones I have purchased. If anyone lives around Toronto area and knows where I can listen to various Headphones and speakers, it would be much appreciated. Also, what other online audio equipment classified sites are there? where else should I look? Thanks everyone Truly appreciated!! =]

Sounds like a winner

Marantz has some decent SACD players. See if you can find an SA8001 used for a good price. (Seems to be one for sale at audiogon.)

 

[wavoman]

Quote:

Originally Posted by limpidglitch /img/forum/go_quote.gif Marantz has some decent SACD players. See if you can find an SA8001 used for a good price. (Seems to be one for sale at audiogon.)

Quote:

Originally Posted by AmanGeorge /img/forum/go_quote.gif I would do a little more research into what SACD player to get - the Oppo I know is a good transport (transports output a digital signal to an external DAC) but may not be as good as an integrated solution (using the Oppo internal DAC). There is probably a better SACD unit if you don't intend to get an external DAC.

Tricky to navigate the choices here. An external DAC is ultimately the best way to go, so the idea is start using the Oppo (cheap), and upgrade when you can afford it to the external DAC, ending up with a world-class solution.

At the NJ meet two years ago, a bunch of us listented hard to the analog outputs of the Oppo and were surprised how good it was, given its reputation as not being that great.

I think this might be a better route than getting a mid-range SACD player now, then orphaning its abilities (which you paid for) when you upgrade.

On the other hand, used is always better than new in this game, as long as the caps are not dried out, so a late model used mid-range unit might be a better path, as limpid suggested.

 

[wavoman]

Quote:

Originally Posted by DavidMahler /img/forum/go_quote.gif I notice you don't really bring up the HD800 which is essentially (to me) a Classical Music headphone....and I hear they sound like an improved HE60 which is a headphone you recommend....have you heard the HD800 and have decided to intentionally not recommend them? ...

I have heard the HD800 at meets and I would agree generally with what you wrote, although I think the HE60 is still the better choice for 50+ year-olds with rolled-off hearing in the highs, since it has a warmth and concert-hall feeling even if the HD800s are more detailed with a better high-end (but somewhat cold).

(Maybe with a the right tube amp and (?) balanced re-cable the HD800s would warm up ... but I didn't think his mom would want tubes, and the HE60 with a used Stax ss amp gives a tube-like sound without the hassle ... and the right concert hall [haven't heard Toronto, but I'm thinking the old Philly Academy of Music] has warmth as well, since the acousticians go to great lengths to soften sounds).

But in the main I didn't suggest it because there is no used market yet, so you are paying the "new model" premium.

I got my badly beat-up fourth-hand HE60's for like $800, Senn restored them to pristine status for under $300, so for $1100 I have something I can plug directly in to a used Stax amp and have world-class SQ.

I have no real knowledge here, but I would guess with the HE90 and HE60 Senn was shooting at Stax back in the day, but with the HD800 they are shooting at the current crop of top entries from Ultrasone, Grado, soon beyer, and maybe Denon and AT too, though I'm not sure Senn worries much about Japan any more ... you know, have an entry in the > $1K range, etc.