[baka1969]

Hi,


I have a hypothetical question. Ok I buy used CDs. I've bought them on Head-Fi, Amazon, retail stores and yard sales. I've picked up one at a time and as much as 50 at once. I pay for them. I don't know what the previous owner did with them or not. They may have listened to them. Or, like I do, they could have ripped them to their computer and put them away.

The question I have is, what if I had 1, 5, 10, 50 or 100 CDs and someone else had an equal amount? For the sake of argument let's assume there is no overlap and each of the 50 had a mix of different genres. Is there any problem with trading one collection of 50 for another collection of 50? I'm talking about the original CDs and not burned copied. No money would change hands as it would be a pretty silly thing to do if both are of equal value. Does it matter if they are ripped copies loaded on the original owners computer/hard drive or not? What if a group of, say, five people each purchased 50 CDs and traded with other members in a round robin style? Does it come down to if each of the members rips the music to a hard drive? No music is being distributed outside the group, just within it.

Let's take it a step further. What if the group pools their music together and buys 250 CDs and rips them to a hard drive and then uses a main hard drive to access all the music. Even to rip it to their own personal drives?

I guess what I'm asking is that buying used CDs seems to be an accepted practice. I have hundreds. If I wanted to sell any or all of them would it be reasonable to expect me to delete the copies I have on my hard drive?

I ask because it is unacceptable to burn a copy and sell the burned CD. Ok, understandable. I even agree. It also seems frowned upon to give a burned copy away to a friend. File sharing is unacceptable. In theory, if I had a large enough group I could only purchase one CD and the group could trade CDs back and forth until there are hundreds or even thousands of them going through my hands. Is it only acceptable if I only listen to it but not rip it to a hard drive?

I would bet that a good portion of used CDs that are sold today have been ripped to some storage device.

What do you think? I look forward to your thoughts and comments.

 

[wje]

Quote:

I would bet that a good portion of used CDs that are sold today have been ripped to some storage device.

What do you think? I look forward to your thoughts and comments.

I would agree with you - that most used CDs probably have copies that reside in 2, 3, 4 ... or thousands of places (if it were shared via a Torrent).  Now, as far as morals are concerned, I can't discuss those because I live about 35 miles outside of Washington, DC - and, I'm probably jaded from all the corruption in Politics. 

 

 

[baka1969]

Who else?

 

[pigmode]

Don't you remember when they raised the price of CDRs, to incorporate a payback to the music industry? Methinks the industry can take care of itself.

 

[KneelJung]

Baka I just saw your thread after I started one about using the public library as a source. I also buy a lot of stuff used from Amazon. I still pay full freight for CD's too. I'm waiting on Joe Bonamassa's new one, Dust Bowl and Hope Radio by Ronnie Earl. The last few before that were 21 by Adele, Mission Bell by Amos Lee, and Low Country Blues by Gregg Allman.  A guy I work with loaned me his Chevelle collection not to long ago and yeah it all ends up on my hard drive .
 
I'm pretty sure the industry knows stuff loaned at public libraries ends up on hard drives, the used CD market has been around a while and the used vinyl market even longer than that. Back in the day libraries had vinyl rather than CD's and people would go home and copy that stuff to cassettes. I buy enough new stuff that I dont feel like a pirate; and the used stuff or borrowed stuff is for my personal consumption not file sharing or re sale. I do burn the occasional CD for a friend or family member though.
 
There are all sorts of other sources for legitimate free music as well, You Tube, Pandora, My Space, Internet Archive.
 
Not sure that answers your hypothetical just throwing it out there.

 

[johangrb]

Small change compared to the heist of the century: http://www.rollingstone.com/politics/news/why-isnt-wall-street-in-jail-20110216
 
Read it & weep. (Disclaimer: I don't condone piracy & strive to support the artists, but in the bigger scheme of things.....).

 

[Uncle Erik]

I think the heart of the problem is where you have a ripped copy but no longer own the physical disc.

It would be interesting, however, to set up something like a co-op that collectively owns tens, or even hundreds, of thousands of discs. You could become a member of the co-op (through buying in, giving your discs to the group, etc.) if it would then be legal to own digital copies of everything belonging to the co-op.

I don't know the legal end of this and haven't done any research on it. But it would be very interesting if this were possible. A few thousand music junkies could build a monstrous library.

Legal or not, it would attract litigation from Big Music.

Even more interesting would be to forum shop with this. If not legal in the US, I wonder if it might be legal in another country.

It would be a hell of an interesting startup, don't you think? Assuming it is legal, of course.

 

[baka1969]

Quote:Originally Posted by KneelJung 

"Baka I just saw your thread after I started one about using the public library as a source. I also buy a lot of stuff used from Amazon. I still pay full freight for CD's too. I'm waiting on Joe Bonamassa's new one, Dust Bowl and Hope Radio by Ronnie Earl. The last few before that were 21 by Adele, Mission Bell by Amos Lee, and Low Country Blues by Gregg Allman.  A guy I work with loaned me his Chevelle collection not to long ago and yeah it all ends up on my hard drive .
I'm pretty sure the industry knows stuff loaned at public libraries ends up on hard drives, the used CD market has been around a while and the used vinyl market even longer than that. Back in the day libraries had vinyl rather than CD's and people would go home and copy that stuff to cassettes. I buy enough new stuff that I dont feel like a pirate; and the used stuff or borrowed stuff is for my personal consumption not file sharing or re sale. I do burn the occasional CD for a friend or family member though.
There are all sorts of other sources for legitimate free music as well, You Tube, Pandora, My Space, Internet Archive.
Not sure that answers your hypothetical just throwing it out there."

It's just a strange dichotomy. One I more or less find humorous. Sony tried to address it with the SADC by not being able to rip them to computers. But the SACD market never took off universally regardless of how many SACD players there are out in the market. Trading/selling the actual CD is a perfectly acceptable practice while trading an exact burned copy isn't. If the CD is ripped on a hard drive isn't it the same thing in reality? I understand the need to not mass produce pirated copies and sell them. It's just that if I have a large group of people that load the a single CD onto a storage device, isn't that almost the same thing? Weird. I know if I should ever sell my CDs for whatever reason I don't plan on deleting all their content off my various drives.

 

[Antony6555]

Music should be an art not an industry. Hurting the big labels can't be bad right?

 

[mark2410]

is it legal? probably.
 
is it ethical? no
 
its one thing to borrow a friends CD, find you like it and so rip a copy but setting out with the intention to buy rip and sell is no different to taking stuff off the pirate bay.  all your doing is using the postal system rather than the internet.
 
 
i think that your even asking about it means you instinctively feel its not right,
 

 

[SiriuslyCold]

if you extrapolate your hypothesis, and use the whole US as the sample, you could each of you just buy one CD and share everything 
 
Legally speaking (Copyright law, as I understand it), once you give up your copy, you no longer have the .. permission.. to make or keep a digital rip, or a copy in any form - you don't really have the right to make a rip even onto your hard disk 
 
The RIAA website states
 
Quote:

"There's no legal 'right' to copy the copyrighted music on a CD onto a CD-R. However, burning a copy of the CD onto a CD-R, or transferring a copy onto your computer hard drive or your portable music player, won't usually raise concerns so long as the copy is made from an authorized original CD that you legitimately own (and) the copy is just for your personal use."

 
the wordings there, "no legal right" and "won't raise concerns" leaves the authorities open to take action if they one day decide to feel concerned.
 

 

[KneelJung]

Quote:

It's just a strange dichotomy. One I more or less find humorous. Sony tried to address it with the SADC by not being able to rip them to computers. But the SACD market never took off universally regardless of how many SACD players there are out in the market. Trading/selling the actual CD is a perfectly acceptable practice while trading an exact burned copy isn't. If the CD is ripped on a hard drive isn't it the same thing in reality? I understand the need to not mass produce pirated copies and sell them. It's just that if I have a large group of people that load the a single CD onto a storage device, isn't that almost the same thing? Weird. I know if I should ever sell my CDs for whatever reason I don't plan on deleting all their content off my various drives.

 
In essence a public library is just a storage device that is shared by a large group of people. It's not quite as convenient as the old Napster or Limewire but they do provide access to digital media, CD's, books on tape, DVD's etc. Now I suppose technically it's a violation of copyright law to transfer that material to your hard drive but ultimately what makes an entity like a public library any different than Limewire?
 
 

 

[SiriuslyCold]

 
Quote:

 
In essence a public library is just a storage device that is shared by a large group of people. It's not quite as convenient as the old Napster or Limewire but they do provide access to digital media, CD's, books on tape, DVD's etc. Now I suppose technically it's a violation of copyright law to transfer that material to your hard drive but ultimately what makes an entity like a public library any different than Limewire?
 

A public library is allowed under Fair Use clause of the copyright act. (from here) Limewire is not a registered public library
 
It is of course a violation of the act to rip a borrowed disc; but if you delete it after returning the disc no one will know
 
interesting article here
 
 
 
Quote:

1. “Ripping” songs from CD I have purchased to copy the songs so that I can play them on my iPod, computer(s), PDAs, and other devices. Make no mistake, this is copying. I feel reasonably comfortable about ripping a song into iTunes and putting it onto an iPod, but I must admit that my comfort comes from the fact that “ripping” is a feature of the software and that Apple and the recording industry seem to have come to an accommodation on this issue. I’m not sure that I would have the same level of comfort if I only looked at the statutes and case law. 

 

 

[BobSaysHi]

Quote:

I think the heart of the problem is where you have a ripped copy but no longer own the physical disc.

It would be interesting, however, to set up something like a co-op that collectively owns tens, or even hundreds, of thousands of discs. You could become a member of the co-op (through buying in, giving your discs to the group, etc.) if it would then be legal to own digital copies of everything belonging to the co-op.

I don't know the legal end of this and haven't done any research on it. But it would be very interesting if this were possible. A few thousand music junkies could build a monstrous library.

Legal or not, it would attract litigation from Big Music.

Even more interesting would be to forum shop with this. If not legal in the US, I wonder if it might be legal in another country.

It would be a hell of an interesting startup, don't you think? Assuming it is legal, of course.

I suspect my post will get deleted, but I figure I'll just post anyway and hope for the best.
 
There are places (on the internet) that support such practices. Getting in requires a great deal of knowledge on how CDs are ripped and whatnot. The community spirit is to contribute to the pile of CD's (really cd rips, but whatever) and they operate in such a way that it is very, very difficult to remain a part of the group without contributing your own collection. So there is a HUGE library available, and a user can pick and choose which albums to pick out, but you have to contribute your own stuff in return.
 
I doubt it's legality, or whether or not it's ethical, but those places do exist. It's almost eerie the way you described it too, because that's exactly the way this site I won't mention is operated.

 

[dirkpitt45]

 
Quote:

I think the heart of the problem is where you have a ripped copy but no longer own the physical disc.

It would be interesting, however, to set up something like a co-op that collectively owns tens, or even hundreds, of thousands of discs. You could become a member of the co-op (through buying in, giving your discs to the group, etc.) if it would then be legal to own digital copies of everything belonging to the co-op.

I don't know the legal end of this and haven't done any research on it. But it would be very interesting if this were possible. A few thousand music junkies could build a monstrous library.

Legal or not, it would attract litigation from Big Music.

Even more interesting would be to forum shop with this. If not legal in the US, I wonder if it might be legal in another country.

It would be a hell of an interesting startup, don't you think? Assuming it is legal, of course.

That's how filesharing/p2p all that stuff started... Just groups of people sharing music, programs whatever, just now it's so widespread it's not really considered the same anymore.