[radiohlite]

I would say it's art, maybe even music (depends on yr definition of music. I for one consider earth/nature very musical), but NOT a 'composition by Cage'. Nothing of his own aural invention/creation is in it.

I could tell an audience to stand by the highway for 5 minutes 55 seconds while I passed back and forth on a Ferrari. That would be my 'Hwy 5'55'' ', my actual composition as far as the sounds from the car are concerned, not counting all other sounds not controlled or influenced by me. But if I just made them stand by the highway and hear all ambient sounds it wouldn't be 'my' composition.

that's what i think, anyway

 

[Cianyx]

Quote:

Originally Posted by eyeresist /img/forum/go_quote.gif Because random noise is not "music", by any useful definition.

Define random noise

Quote:

Originally Posted by scytheavatar /img/forum/go_quote.gif Nope, it is not music and the fact that some people consider it to be music shows what's wrong with some (not all) of the contemporary classical music. If you could call ambient noise music what's there to stop me from calling Britney Spear's songs as masterpieces on the level of Beethoven's best works?

4' 33" is not music, much less contemporary classical. Personally, I see it as a way to exploit people's false admiration for "deep" stuff. Ambient and noise (note that they are two different sub-genres) are composed music to create a soundscape as pictured by the artist. As for the latter, you are arguing an entirely different point.

 

[Le Le]

Lol, never heard of it before, but from this thread it appears to be 4 minutes and 33 seconds of silence, which is one of the most pretentious things ever. Something for people who are disappointed that they turned out to be just as aggressively mediocre as the other members of their wineclub, who enjoy white paintings called snow and spend 3500$ to look like they don't care about looks. Quite often, I've been silent for over 4'33 without calling it art. I think, if you listen very carefully during these "performances", you can hear the people who are making money out of this nonsense laugh hysterically.

 

[waex]

The real question is: what changes when you change your defintion from noise to music, or music to noise? Obviously the music (noise) does not change in itself. Also IMHO we like our music, whatever it may be, because we are conditioned to like it. In the early
20th century Stravinsky's "Rite Of Spring" started a small riot. Now I am fairly certain that anyone critical of it would just ignore it. As Frank Zappa said: In the 50's rock and roll was deemed subversive; now we are aerobicizing to it! If music loving aliens came down to earth they would have a hard time distinguising music from noise. Why be a hater of anyone trying to stretch us out of what we are conditioned to listen to?

 

[waex]

Then again I'm the type of collector that would buy a record of a cat playing piano.

 

[meme]

The point of course of 4'33" is that there is no such thing as complete silence in our world, you can lock yourself in a completely soundproof room and still hear sounds - the sound of your heart beating or blood pulsing through your veins, for example.

I myself don't consider the piece itself as music, but I think that it is up to the listener themselves to decide whether the sounds/noise heard at the performance are or aren't music, everybody has there own idea of what they consider to be musical.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Le Le /img/forum/go_quote.gif Lol, never heard of it before, but from this thread it appears to be 4 minutes and 33 seconds of silence, which is one of the most pretentious things ever

The key is that it is a performance piece and is not just four and a half minutes of silence, it is the context of that silence that is important.

 

[waex]

The point of course of 4'33" is that there is no such thing as complete silence in our world, you can lock yourself in a completely soundproof room and still hear sounds - the sound of your heart beating or blood pulsing through your veins, for example.

I agree. There is no such thing as silence.

 

[scytheavatar]

Knock knock.
Who's there?

















Knock knock.
Who's there?


















Knock knock.
Who's there?





































John Cage

 

[Le Le]

Quote:

Originally Posted by meme /img/forum/go_quote.gif The key is that it is a performance piece and is not just four and a half minutes of silence, it is the context of that silence that is important.

I agree it's a performance piece, but in my opinion, they should have performed it only once (if at all). Now, everybody knows what is going to happen, which takes away the complete context, namely people expecting a concert. There is no surprise. Art is serious business. This, however, is laziness. Art has a meaning, a message, an emotion. If his message is to take some time to listen to the world around you that's fine, but don't try to sell that as art, as something you came up with. It's shameless really, in my opinion. The Bicycle Wheel was impressive. Now, if I go to your door and put a wheel on a stool, would you thank me for a timeless work of art, or ask me kindly to remove my garbage?

 

[tru blu]

Y'know, there's a lot of talk currently being thrown around about how the digitization of music production and distribution has democratized musicmaking, allowing anyone who wants to to make stuff and put it out. What I think is glossed over, however, is how that seeming advance can also flood us with torrents of substandard music.

I bring this up in the context of 4'33" because to me with that one idea Cage truly democratized the process, making it possible for even non-musicmakers to grab a little bit of genius. Bottom line? Whether we call it music or not, I'd much rather witness anyone perform 4'33" than hear much of the self-indulgent amateurism that passes for creativity these days. But that's just me…

 

[Fido2]

John Cage is a doofus...lol

 

[gbacic]

John Zorn > John Cage IMO

Cage made experimental music laughable and silly.

 

[keithdn]

This reminds me of something Rage Against the Machine did, and I don't think the (pissed-off) fans in the background would qualify as "music."

Let's see here, from TFD..

mu·sic (myzk)
n.

• The art of arranging sounds in time so as to produce a continuous, unified, and evocative composition, as through melody, harmony, rhythm, and timbre.
• Vocal or instrumental sounds possessing a degree of melody, harmony, or rhythm.
• • A musical composition.
  • The written or printed score for such a composition.
  • Such scores considered as a group: We keep our music in a stack near the piano.
• A musical accompaniment.
• A particular category or kind of music.
• An aesthetically pleasing or harmonious sound or combination of sounds: the music of the wind in the pines.

As honest as John Cage's intentions were, his is obviously an ideal and not music. Unorganized, random noise is very, very unrealistic to call music, by any definition. I will not say never, but in no way was it even slightly realistic for Cage to believe, even only one time, that the random noises would collect to create an "aesthetically pleasing" sound.

 

[keithdn]

Sorry for above; I see it's already been generally agreed upon that this "composition" is not likely music. Also, didn't intend to come off sounding like a pretentious a**hole!

 

[Chrispy]

Quote:

Originally Posted by keithdn /img/forum/go_quote.gif . [6]An aesthetically pleasing or harmonious sound or combination of sounds: the music of the wind in the pines.

This was Cage's focus for "music." Or at least the idea that organized sound/noise is music. 4'33 is the sound of the ambient noises within the performance venue.

Cage said his inspiration for 4'33 came when he locked himself in a completely sound proof room and said he could hear even the sound of his synapses firing. No two performances of 4'33 are ever the same, though they all demonstrate the same idea.

John Cage is an interesting character. You can tell some of his pieces are very tongue in cheek, watch the video for "water walking" ("Why is it called that?" "Because it uses water, and I am walking"). He seems to enjoy getting a laugh out of people as he carefully stares at a watch and pushes radios off of a table. Cage pushed the envelope for what is considered "music" but I do not this he did so in an overtly pretentious way. I thought 4'33 was pretty dumb when I first heard of it but over a few years my perspective on what is are and what is music have changed dramatically.

PS. to the person up above who mentioned Zorn, I've played "cobra" before. fun but mad hard to get to sound good.

performance of Cobra, http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1m1pjR1AQbc not mine