[elnero]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Glassman it was Pioneer DV-565A, but it doesn't matter all that much which one you choose.. I was refering to the actual digital output, which is of course only a part of the system.. just went to see what's under the hood of your DAC and I can tell you that you'd definitely benefit from better transport.. it's the DAC which makes you like how your system sounds, not your DVD player.. have you tried your DAC using different transports?

Ok, your losing me here, on one hand your saying that all DVD players have terrible digital output, which I take to mean you're saying they'll sound bad, but then go on to say that it's the DAC that is going to make me like how my system sounds?

I know my system will benefit from a better transport, I stated that a couple of times already and also mentioned in my initial post that I also used my Eastern Electric MiniMax as a transport in direct comparison. The MiniMax was definately better offering a tighter more focused presention that had a bit better detail. By contrast the Philips has a bit tubbier bass, less extended, a bit less detail shows through and it is a rounder less focused sound that is smooth, pleasant and non-irritating. Would the difference be worth a $1000 more? That would be up to the end user but it wasn't worth it for me. Due to my situation the Philips is what I have to use for the moment but I'm keeping my eye out for a better solution. In the meantime though I don't feel cheated or short changed by the Philips, it is what it is and I'm amazed I can get this quality of sound for the amount invested. I'd liken it to something like using a decent portable amp as a home amp, maybe not the best solution in the absolute sense but it still sounds good making music.

 

[Glassman]

yes, they'll sound bad and they do sound bad - compared to good transports.. the way you described the difference between your Philips and MiniMax when used as transports, that's it! now MiniMax probably isn't the ultimate transport either, so you can do even better.. at this point it's clearly up to you to consider which transport is good enough for your particular needs.. price/performace considerations are of course valid.. the rest of the system is another story.. and I claim that the positive things about your system's sound are to be atributed to the DAC, definitely not to the player.. player is doing poor job, but that doesn't make the whole system poor.. I hope you understand what I'm trying to say, I'm probably not that good at expressing myself.. of course, no offence meant, I was just commenting on the digital output performance of these cheap players..

 

[Glassman]

Quote:

Originally Posted by iScream Please excuse me for jumping in on this conversation but you guys seem pretty knowledgable and I can't stop wondering something. If you use a DAC with anti-jitter, something that buffers the input stream and precisely reclocks it before converting to analog, doesn't that remove any concern for the quality of the transport? It seems so simple to me, but I'm sure there must be something fundamental I'm missing... Thanks, Chris

it's that simple, yet so few DACs actually do something like this.. that's the problem..

 

[jrosenth]

Can you reccomend any that do - that might work well with this little guy - ideally the cheaper the better? thanks

 

[labrat]

Deleted.

 

[elnero]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Glassman of course, no offence meant, I was just commenting on the digital output performance of these cheap players..

No offence taken, I just wanted to point out that while maybe not ideal a cheap DVD player shouldn't just be completely written off for those on limited budgets or don't have another option. Quote:

Originally Posted by iScream Please excuse me for jumping in on this conversation but you guys seem pretty knowledgable and I can't stop wondering something. If you use a DAC with anti-jitter, something that buffers the input stream and precisely reclocks it before converting to analog, doesn't that remove any concern for the quality of the transport? It seems so simple to me, but I'm sure there must be something fundamental I'm missing...

Quote:

Originally Posted by Glassman it's that simple, yet so few DACs actually do something like this.. that's the problem..

So then a DAC that reclocks should make the transport a non-issue? What about the EMI problems you mentioned?

What about adding something like a Monarchy DIP? Quote:

Originally Posted by labrat Are you into DIY? I have just ordered two DIY assembled DAC-kits, Monica 2, and these are reclocked DAC's, not too expencive either! Red Wine Audio is using these in their DAC, some more expencive though, but completed with battery, in- and out-connectors. Look on the net about info on these DAC's. I have not yet received them, hope to have some time playing with these kits during winter, and have them in a small enclosure hopefully, for portable use.

I didn't realize the Monica 2 reclocks as well. It has intrigued me for awhile now but I'm not a DIY'er and I'm not sure whether the battery thing might be a hinderance so I haven't pursued it. Red Wines fully assembled version does look nice but at $450 it seems rather expensive considering the DAC assembled only cost $125 so essentially your paying $325 for an aluminum box, battery and some connectors and wire. I wonder if any DIY'ers around these parts could build one cheaper and whether it could be built for AC as opposed to battery?

 

[fewtch]

I have to agree with the general notion of cheap DVD players sounding bad, aside from specific issues related to digital outs. They have poor power supplies, there's EMI from the video circuitry, and the list goes on... I actually find cheap vintage CD players (via line out and powered by batteries) sounding much better than the cheap wall powered DVD players I've listened to. Granted I'm not talking about digital outs here, but I don't think I'd want those power supply and EMI issues no matter what. Digital outputs are not a panacea for all ills.

 

[Glassman]

Quote:

Originally Posted by elnero So then a DAC that reclocks should make the transport a non-issue? What about the EMI problems you mentioned? What about adding something like a Monarchy DIP?

pretty much so.. EMI is non-issue when using optical of course.. from what I know about DIP, this is not really optimal solution..

 

[fewtch]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Glassman pretty much so.. EMI is non-issue when using optical of course..

Couldn't EMI still introduce problems before the signal gets to the output, i.e. jitter or non bit-perfect output?

 

[Glassman]

no, there's no way to corrupt the actual data really.. the problem is those players use to attenuate in digital or even use limiters and none of this can be turned off, so the data are non-bitperfect even before they reach the output.. jitter is also non-issue if the receiving end is implemented properly and I mean properly, which does not seem to be a common practice at all..

 

[elnero]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Glassman pretty much so.. EMI is non-issue when using optical of course.. from what I know about DIP, this is not really optimal solution..

So then why is Toslink generally frowned upon? Would Toslink actually be a better way of connecting than coax when using a DVD player?

What is it about the DIP that would make it not optimal?

At this point the OPPO Digital DVD player looks to be the best DivX capable option on the market but I don't know if it would make much difference over the Philips in stock form. The general sense I got at Audio Circles that it has a decent digital out in stock form but Boulder can do some upgrades that apparently do very good things for it as well. If I were to buy one upgrades probably wouldn't be in the cards anytime soon though so would it be better to find someone to build a Monica2 DAC or try something like the OPPO to see if it's any better than the Philips?

I'm just full of questions today.

 

[Glassman]

the 'reclocking' feature of Monica is to be taken with a grain of salt.. this one does not recover proper clock, it just introduces somewhat predictable jitter of it's own.. can't comment on the actual sound results, but solely from the technical standpoint this is just nonsense.. it apperently sounds interesting to many..

I'm not going to comment on DIP anymore, it's just not an optimal solution by the virtue of it's operation..

frankly I don't know where all the bashing originates from, most likely because of suboptimal implementation of toslink modules in majority of devices.. maybe cable lobby

the fact is, toslink can exhibit lower low frequency phase noise than coax..

 

[elnero]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Glassman the 'reclocking' feature of Monica is to be taken with a grain of salt.. this one does not recover proper clock, it just introduces somewhat predictable jitter of it's own.. can't comment on the actual sound results, but solely from the technical standpoint this is just nonsense.. it apperently sounds interesting to many.. I'm not going to comment on DIP anymore, it's just not an optimal solution by the virtue of it's operation.. frankly I don't know where all the bashing originates from, most likely because of suboptimal implementation of toslink modules in majority of devices.. maybe cable lobby the fact is, toslink can exhibit lower low frequency phase noise than coax..

Might be an interesting experiment to try both in my system and see if one works better than the other, the inclusion of a Blue Jeans Belden 1694a coax definately made a difference compared to a generic Acoustic Research coax I bought at Futureshop. Any recommendations for a reasonably priced Toslink or is there much of a difference?

 

[sbulack]

Quote:

Originally Posted by elnero Any recommendations for a reasonably priced Toslink or is there much of a difference?

On ebay, I recently got this item: "3 ft GLASS TOSLINK DIGITAL OPTICAL CABLE" (a "Buy It Now", not an auction) from the seller "uniqueproductsonline" for $23 shipped, and it arrived FAST (for the standard, minimal shipping fee), packaged well and in fine condition. 6ft and 9ft versions were not much more.
When it arrived, it looked and performed the same (as far as I could detect) as Glass Toslinks I'd paid about $50 for at web sites like CablesToGo about a year ago. Today, that same Glass Toslink at CablesToGo is about $70 with shipping.