[Lunatique]

Lol, you are not going to tune 12db's of difference between users away with tip selection. If that was the case, just use different tips to get it more neutral.

 
But that 12 dB of difference is caused by HRTF, not soley ear canal differences. Once you take away the chest size, head size, ear size, etc. and only consider the ear canal size/shape, the differences won't be as dramatic. 

I read your posts, and i can totally understand where you come from, and the theoritical and practical knowledge you possess.

But i have say your posts are more criticising and don't bring solution to the table. If you are so sure that the world as it is now lacks neutral reference UIEM (because you don't like CIEM, otherwise you can get UE PRM), then you can use the opportunity to make it happens by create that UIEM.
Creating and selling a pair of IEM is not easy, granted. But if you wanna put that idealistic thought of yours to a product and make your statement counts in this world, then go the long way and make it happen!

Criticising is easy, but being part of solution takes courage.

As for this 'disappear and let you enjoy the music' i think he referred to comfortability of A12, which can't be compared to 'U'12, given a perfect fit through perfect ear impressions. To which i'd agree, as I used my A12 for stage, and the comfortability of the (C)IEM are hard to beat because of custom mould + ADEL Tech.

Ultimately, IF at the end of the day you are going to find that 'ultimate reference' IEM that suit you, please inform us. I'd be very interested to plug them into my unexperienced, normal ears to at the end know how neutrality and reference flat FR sounds.

PS: for any wrong terms or wording, which are to find in this posting, I'd like to apologise in advance. I'm by any means not an expert. Just an ordinary person giving his opinion.

You know, it's funny you bring that up. I recently commented to my wife that I was so angry with how consumer audio companies behave that I really want to start my own company and produce the kind of products that actually fulfills that these companies promise but fail to deliver (or simply are being dishonest about), and my company's conduct will be far more transparent and I'll be completely honest with my marketing, telling things as they really are instead of trying to lie to the customers in my marketing. 
 
But unfortunately, my passions are in being a composer/songwriter, fiction writer, director, artist, and photographer. I have no interest in starting and running a headphone company, and my anger towards the behavior of consumer audio companies is not enough to pull me away from my real passions in life. 
 
I will continue to update that thread, sharing my quest with all of you. Maybe one day I will find a pair of IEMs that are truly neutral/accurate, and that would be a happy day. But, I'm already grateful that my speaker system is absolutely sublime, able to achieve perfect neutrality from 18Hz to 20KHz, and every time I listen to it, I feel aural bliss. And I'm also glad I have such a system to use as the golden standard to judge other audio gear by. I often wish I can invite anyone who wants to hear just how powerful, detailed, dimensional, dynamic, and musical real neutrality/accuracy sounds like to my studio, but it seems very few of you live in my area. If I can convert just a few people and educate them into understanding why full-range neutrality/accuracy is such a worthy goal for music lovers and why the popular misconception about neutrality is so wrong, it would be worth the effort. I would love it if people brought their favorite music to my studio and play them on my system and then watch their jaws drop to the floor and be converted to the pro audio mentality and abandon consumer audio misconceptions forever.

 

[Lunatique]

  Do you guys think that perhaps what is being discussed is the difference between neutrality, and sounding natural?  IME there is a difference.  And that also correlates to our very subjective opinion of what is balanced (because everyone will have a different idea of what is balanced to them).
 
Take the HD600 - it is one of the most natural sounding and balanced headphones I've heard - but it isn't neutral.
 
I understand what Lunatique wants with his quest for a truly neutral earphone. I've experienced some of the EQing Joe Bloggs provided for a couple of my earphones to create a more neutral profile, and I was amazed at how much better they sounded (to me anyway) than the original tuning.
 
But at the same time, I understand what companies like 1964Ears are saying when they describe one of their line as being neutral and accurate.  Relative to the rest of their line - they may well be.
 
I think the difference is in people's understanding of the terms, and there is a relative difference to use of the terms depending on who is using them.  Not saying there should be - but ultimately that is how it is.  Although a lot of us talk about wanting what is neutral, too often we are describing what sounds more natural to us - and ultimately not what is neutral (from a production/audio professional viewpoint).

If that was the case, then 64 Audio should just stop mentioning audio engineers and musicians altogether in their marketing, and stop telling people their IEMs are suitable for professional critical listening during mixing and mastering. If they just market their products as consumer audio IEMs, I wouldn't even raise an eyebrow. 

 

[shotgunshane]

Considering it was a measurement of headphones with in ear microphones, head, chest and all that other stuff would not come into play. Just the pinna that is bypassed between headphones and earphones. You can check Rin Choi and Speakerphone's blogs if you want to see the measured affect of varrying tips/sleeves in an ear simulator. It will vary by iem as some are more affected by acoustic impedance and fit depth than others. Some seem impervious those changes. Some change drastically. There is so much more in play, not to mention the effects of psychoacoustics.

 

[twister6]

Any other A12/U12 owners/users and what do you guys/gals think about these in terms of tonality and sound signature?
 


 
So far I'm hearing these as having a warm, organic, smooth, lush tonality, and... with a very noticeable mid-bass boost pushing it into L-shaped sound signature.  I assume, with an adjustable MAM module things can easily balance out, but so far this is my first impression with a default non-adjustable ADEL module.  -4dB cut around 60Hz brings back the balance between low end and mids.  For the reference, I'm using PAW Gold and TWag v3 pure silver cable.
 
It's truly amazing to see 12 individual BA drivers, very efficiently packed inside of a shell which is the same size or even smaller than some of my other 6-driver CIEMs.  A12 is sitting flush in my ears!!!  Also, with ADEL module out, it sounds like you are listening to open back headphones, at expense of zero sound isolation and filtered out bass.  With ADEL module in, I'm hearing the tonality/signature as I mentioned above.  Of course, looking forward to try it out with an adjustable ADEL module when it becomes available.

 

[Eugguy]

  Any other A12/U12 owners/users and what do you guys/gals think about these in terms of tonality and sound signature?
 


 
So far I'm hearing these as having a warm, organic, smooth, lush tonality, and... with a very noticeable mid-bass boost pushing it into L-shaped sound signature.  I assume, with an adjustable MAM module things can easily balance out, but so far this is my first impression with a default non-adjustable ADEL module.  -4dB cut around 60Hz brings back the balance between low end and mids.  For the reference, I'm using PAW Gold and TWag v3 pure silver cable.
 
It's truly amazing to see 12 individual BA drivers, very efficiently packed inside of a shell which is the same size or even smaller than some of my other 6-driver CIEMs.  A12 is sitting flush in my ears!!!  Also, with ADEL module out, it sounds like you are listening to open back headphones, at expense of zero sound isolation and filtered out bass.  With ADEL module in, I'm hearing the tonality/signature as I mentioned above.  Of course, looking forward to try it out with an adjustable ADEL module when it becomes available.

I agree with organic, warm, and lush. Such a pleasing sound. 

 

[AudioBear]

+1
 
Mojo+A12S. 

 

[shotgunshane]

Holeesmokes, the 12 has more bass than the 10?!
U10 is pretty bassy. I'm using the sport series complies to reduce bass! (due to porous nature of the sport series).

 

[nardkumz]

Any other A12/U12 owners/users and what do you guys/gals think about these in terms of tonality and sound signature?








So far I'm hearing these as having a warm, organic, smooth, lush tonality, and... with a very noticeable mid-bass boost pushing it into L-shaped sound signature.  I assume, with an adjustable MAM module things can easily balance out, but so far this is my first impression with a default non-adjustable ADEL module.  -4dB cut around 60Hz brings back the balance between low end and mids.  For the reference, I'm using PAW Gold and TWag v3 pure silver cable.

It's truly amazing to see 12 individual BA drivers, very efficiently packed inside of a shell which is the same size or even smaller than some of my other 6-driver CIEMs.  A12 is sitting flush in my ears!!!  Also, with ADEL module out, it sounds like you are listening to open back headphones, at expense of zero sound isolation and filtered out bass.  With ADEL module in, I'm hearing the tonality/signature as I mentioned above.  Of course, looking forward to try it out with an adjustable ADEL module when it becomes available.

I'm with you on warm and smooth sound signature. And I love THE BASS! Just the right amount of bass for my ears. A12 is simply my go to IEM atm, and i'm a fan of big soundstage, and A12's soundstage is just HUGE! love it

 

[cn11]

Quote:

Holeesmokes, the 12 has more bass than the 10?!
U10 is pretty bassy. I'm using the sport series complies to reduce bass! (due to porous nature of the sport series).

 
Ha ha ha... So is the U10 bassier than the Solar? I'm finding that one quite prodigious in the lows...

 

[shotgunshane]

Quote:

Originally Posted by shotgunshane /img/forum/go_quote.gif


Holeesmokes, the 12 has more bass than the 10?!

U10 is pretty bassy. I'm using the sport series complies to reduce bass! (due to porous nature of the sport series).

Ha ha ha... So is the U10 bassier than the Solar? I'm finding that one quite prodigious in the lows...

No, not that bassy. Less than Solar but more than Jupiter. I'm pretty surprised. I'll have to compare to solar tomorrow to see how close, although the u10 enhancement is tilted to sub bass.

 

[mathi8vadhanan]

  Any other A12/U12 owners/users and what do you guys/gals think about these in terms of tonality and sound signature?
 


 
So far I'm hearing these as having a warm, organic, smooth, lush tonality, and... with a very noticeable mid-bass boost pushing it into L-shaped sound signature.  I assume, with an adjustable MAM module things can easily balance out, but so far this is my first impression with a default non-adjustable ADEL module.  -4dB cut around 60Hz brings back the balance between low end and mids.  For the reference, I'm using PAW Gold and TWag v3 pure silver cable.
 
It's truly amazing to see 12 individual BA drivers, very efficiently packed inside of a shell which is the same size or even smaller than some of my other 6-driver CIEMs.  A12 is sitting flush in my ears!!!  Also, with ADEL module out, it sounds like you are listening to open back headphones, at expense of zero sound isolation and filtered out bass.  With ADEL module in, I'm hearing the tonality/signature as I mentioned above.  Of course, looking forward to try it out with an adjustable ADEL module when it becomes available.

Did you try it with your AK120II,  balanced out? 

 

[twister6]

 

  Any other A12/U12 owners/users and what do you guys/gals think about these in terms of tonality and sound signature?
 
 
 
 
So far I'm hearing these as having a warm, organic, smooth, lush tonality, and... with a very noticeable mid-bass boost pushing it into L-shaped sound signature.  I assume, with an adjustable MAM module things can easily balance out, but so far this is my first impression with a default non-adjustable ADEL module.  -4dB cut around 60Hz brings back the balance between low end and mids.  For the reference, I'm using PAW Gold and TWag v3 pure silver cable.
 
It's truly amazing to see 12 individual BA drivers, very efficiently packed inside of a shell which is the same size or even smaller than some of my other 6-driver CIEMs.  A12 is sitting flush in my ears!!!  Also, with ADEL module out, it sounds like you are listening to open back headphones, at expense of zero sound isolation and filtered out bass.  With ADEL module in, I'm hearing the tonality/signature as I mentioned above.  Of course, looking forward to try it out with an adjustable ADEL module when it becomes available.

Did you try it with your AK120II,  balanced out? 

 
Out of 4 of my summit-fi sources, AK120ii, PAW Gold, X7, and L5 Pro - AK120ii has the "worst" pair up with A12, relatively speaking in terms of retrieval of details.  AK120ii is the smoothest one in comparison, then L5 Pro, and X7 and PAW Gold on par with the most transparency and detail retrieval.  In terms of soundstage expansion, I'm using TWag v3 modular so can go quickly between single ended TRS and balanced 2.5mm TRRS.  With every source the depth and height are above average, very good, but width varies.  AK120ii (single ended) and L5 Pro have an average width, while AK120ii balanced is on par with X7 and PAW Gold where soundstage width is above average.
 
With bass, it's definitely elevated and can benefit from 4db cut around 60Hz (right on the border of sub-bass/mid-bass), but I feel like it's calming down a bit (perhaps due to burn in of crossover components, the ceramic cap and thick film resistor).  Or maybe it's my brain burn in, which quite possibly the case.  But I'm slowly starting to get addicted to A12 bass.  This is one heck of a multi-layered and multi-dimensional bass with a pure analog quality of a dynamic driver.  It's not fast (not your typical BA fast attack), and has a longer decay which spills a little bit into lower mids, giving it extra body and more warmth.  Upper mids have a lush smoothness and still very detailed.  One amazing thing about upper mids is how organic and realistic vocals sound  Treble is not very extended, pretty much after 10k it's rolled off, so don't expect too much airiness, but it has a great definition and zero sibilance.  Due to warmth, layering is not the best, and separation is average, but at the same time sound is not congested at all.  The imaging not necessary 3D holographic, but it has a good placement of instruments and vocals.  The overall staging is expanded but closer to intimate level, not too far out of your head.  To my ears A12 feels like it's tuned for musician performance and relaxed laid back listening rather then studio monitoring or critical listening.

 

[vtkc]

  Any other A12/U12 owners/users and what do you guys/gals think about these in terms of tonality and sound signature?
 


 
So far I'm hearing these as having a warm, organic, smooth, lush tonality, and... with a very noticeable mid-bass boost pushing it into L-shaped sound signature.  I assume, with an adjustable MAM module things can easily balance out, but so far this is my first impression with a default non-adjustable ADEL module.  -4dB cut around 60Hz brings back the balance between low end and mids.  For the reference, I'm using PAW Gold and TWag v3 pure silver cable.
 
It's truly amazing to see 12 individual BA drivers, very efficiently packed inside of a shell which is the same size or even smaller than some of my other 6-driver CIEMs.  A12 is sitting flush in my ears!!!  Also, with ADEL module out, it sounds like you are listening to open back headphones, at expense of zero sound isolation and filtered out bass.  With ADEL module in, I'm hearing the tonality/signature as I mentioned above.  Of course, looking forward to try it out with an adjustable ADEL module when it becomes available.

 I do quite agree with you on the warm, organic, smooth, lush tonalilty and with a slight boost in the mid-bass. The bass is very controlled and is also very precise and is not bloated or very bass-heavy. It is just quite prominent. The sound stage is just... WOW!!! SO WIDE AND DEEP!!! The separation is also very precise and wide. I am using the Kickstarter version of the U12 with the stock mic-cable and Onkyo DP-X1. I have yet to receive my DHC Symbiotide SE Hybrid Balanced cable to test the full potential of my U12.

 

[Ike1985]

I am still in the midst of testing and comparing my u12 vs the competitors...personally, the u12 is amazing. It is hitting every single aspect of sound I could ever desire. It is neutral to my ears while still having a personality. Amazing soundstage and imaging. I am not new at all to the iem game, and I will say I catch myself with instances of paranoia, thinking I am hearing sounds that are really from the u12, rather than my home. 

My experience exactly, while listening in the dark I pulled them out and reached for my gun once because I was certain there was someone in my house. It was people talking after playing a piano song, art lande blue coast. When playing videos games like fallout 4 it's especially noticeable.

 

[Ike1985]

I would echo what everyone else said about A12:

Extremely rich and lush mids
Bass is extremely deep with many layers, especially sub bass
Zero sibiliance

And yes, mind do completely disappear and only the music remains-I forget I'm even wearing them. Get CIEMs and yours may as well.

Thanks to ADEL my listening is around 10db(4-8 clicks in on mojo @ 1db increments) decibels and I hear everything .