Nura: Headphones that learn and adapt to your unique hearing
May 18, 2016 at 12:39 PM Thread Starter Post #1 of 43

korsekas

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So I saw this Kickstarter project and it seemed pretty interesting, but I want to hear people's thoughts on this before I jump on it.

Nura: Headphones that learn and adapt to your unique hearing

 
SUMMARY: Apparently these headphones tailor fit the frequency response of the headphones to each individual's hearing. They do it by monitoring your ears' hearing via otoacoustic emissions, which I think means measuring the sound waves that are reflected off your ear when a sound is played into your ear. They then use the data to customise the frequency response of the headphones.
 
How legit is this? Is it just pseudoscience or actually feasible?
 
Feeling a bit iffy about this because 1) I don't know what their target frequency curve is, 2) I don't know how good these headphones actually, and 3) seems to be a new company with no experience and very sparse info online (their website doesn't say anything at all).
 
What do you guys think?
 
May 19, 2016 at 8:36 PM Post #5 of 43
  Didn't see any similar threads around here...
 
What do you mean by "objective assessment rather than accurate measurement"?

Did you ever have your hearing sensitivity or threshold levels checked before:wink: It is usually a subjective test in which the measurement result depends on the response from the examinee. But the response is either impossible or unreliable for certain examinees, such as infants. It would be ideal if there is an easy (i.e. non-intrusive) way to objectively measure the hearing threshold without needing examinee's response, Unfortunately, it is just simply not possible.  The OAE test in such situation can be used only to make assessment on examinee's hearing capability. But it can not provide information about examinee's exact hearing levels. 
 
So the claim by Nura is highly incredible...
 
May 28, 2016 at 6:00 AM Post #6 of 43
I gave them a thorough test yesterday at a Music Tech event, and they are legit. Might write a full review later if I find the time. 
 
They are a must own for audiophiles, and have some really cool features as headphones. Not sure about the styling yet, as they're still tweaking that. 
 
Event is continuing today, so if anyone would like me to look into anything specific, or ask the Nura team any direct questions, add to the thread and I'll see what I can do. 
 
May 28, 2016 at 7:10 AM Post #7 of 43
Cool, would be nice to see a full review of it at some point! If valleynomad is right then they must have done a great deal of research and engineering to achieve this, pretty impressive for a new company.
 
Could you describe the sound signature and maybe compare it to other headphones/earphones you use? Also how was the build quality? (I know they will probably be modifying the design down the line but it's a good sign if their demo is solidly built)
 
May 30, 2016 at 4:03 PM Post #8 of 43
OK. Here goes
 
There are 3 co-founders : a business guy, an electrical engineering PhD, and an ear surgeon / hearing science PhD with some firmware expertise. So I think in a way, the research and engineering was already built up over their respective lifetimes. They're of the start-up generation, and definitely can see a lot of careful thought has gone into this product at every step.
 
The concept alone is a pretty big departure from conventional headphones, and could be game-changing, honestly. The first time you plug your phones in, you run the app to get your profile. This process takes about a minute, and is comfortable. It works by sending a variety of frequencies into your ear. These tones are absorbed down into your brain, which generates its own signals in response, which the headphones listen out for. The more scientific components of this part elude me, but that's the jist. Your brain hears the frequencies and based on details specific to you, sends out its own signals.
 
Within 60 seconds, the technology has figured out your personalised frequency response profile. And your profile stays with the cans from then on. Just one scan when you first get the cans and you're all good. Yes, you can load and store more than one profile. The profiles are, I believe, stored in the headphones themselves- rather than in the accompanying software. So you can plug and play anywhere.
 
This does require power though, so the headphones run off a lightning/usb cable- not 3.5mm jack. Potentially controversial, I guess. But hey, this is the new school. Not going to be a dealbreaker for me. 
 
I tried listening to some others' profiles, and none of theirs sounded as good as mine. Amazingly, everybody at the product demo said this - they liked their own profile the best. I guess this is the most compelling evidence that the tech works.
 
Other people's profiles mostly sounded as though they had been oddly filtered at various parts of the frequency spectrum, a bit noisy, and occasionally less wide in the stereo image. My profile, though, came through clear, deep and rich across the range. Tried a few A/B's with my Sony MDR 7506's and some Bose Quietcomfort 25's. Again, the results were deeper, richer and clearer on the Nuras, and the soundstage put the conventional headphones to shame. BIG stereo field. It was easier to pick out some of the instruments, even than on the MDR's.
 
There is also a bass function they are calling 'Kick it' which delivers huge, skull-shaking bass, and leaves the rest of the signal as is. I believe that this new combination of ear-bud and over-ear speaker is what allows this to happen, because I've never heard anything like it in a pair of cans. Ever. It is smooth, fast and game-changingly deep and rich. No rumble. No sudden spikes. And apparently safe on the ears!
 
I've seen skepticism about how accurate their scientific claims are. I can't really speak to that. But I was impressed by the sound for sure. And I listen with a critical ear, even more so with hyped products.
 
One of the more unusual things about these headphones is that they are essentially both in-ear buds and over-ear cans. I expected it might be uncomfortable, but it wasn't at all. The doctor on the team told me that they had options to refine the in-ear tech in a way other manufacturers can't, because Nura don't have to worry about keeping the buds from falling out- the build keeps them in. And with your earholes plugged by the buds, the over-ear part can vibrate and push bassier sounds against the ear without causing damage by sudden changes in air pressure going to your eardrums... Or something like that. They got pretty technical. I'll stick to the experience.
 
Basically, they get a 9/10. Clarity is excellent. Soundstage is wide. They drive well. Don't get too muddy or airy. Fantastically present across the spectrum. No sparkle or bite. The bass was even despite being very driven.
 
Not sure if that level of presence might get fatiguing after a while, as I only had 10-15 minutes to try them out.
 
If the claims are to be believed, the freq. response is the best on the market, because it's tailor made for you. It does sound very, very good. I was surprised they competed so well with my 7506s, which are famous for being a good, balanced reference can. The Boses weren't even close, sounded narrow and dull in comparison. 
 
With the profile function disengaged, the signal was noisy, missing detail and had some high frequencies dropped out. In short, sounded cheap and nasty. But engaged, they sounded top end. The team acknowledged this. There isn't really a reason to have the profile off. 
 
I know some folks on the board are into character, and some are into 'perfect flatness', but I can't speak to the authenticity of the response. They are going to be awesome for listening to and enjoying music. No clue about serious monitoring. I guess I would want to know in that case that I was hearing what others would hear, not something customised for me. In some sense, it is customised to be flat for you. It's a bit of a riddle which only more listening can solve.
 
Build-wise, also not sure what the deal is. The demo model was all prototype, and there was a mock-up of the early design for commercial release which wasn't functional. It was mostly a stylish, brushed aluminium- not the premium kind. With all that tech inside I hope they'll be durable. Cans were skinned with a soft and rubbery material, like what you find on ear buds. Ear buds were just normal ear buds that stick out from the cans. The heads are replaceable. The product has a modern, style-conscious look presumably intended for the commercial market.
 
 
Possible cons:
 
-They're planning to retail at US$399. This isn't cheap. I'm assuming they'll be looking to compete more with the luxury consumer brands, rather than pro-audio. They are certainly a threat to Bose and Beats. Would be great to see how they hold up against something like the Momentums. But honestly, I think we have a serious new contender arriving here. Currently kickstarting for a reasonable US$199.
 
-The lack of 3.5mm or 1/4" jack cable. There'll be USB only, which is fair enough, I guess. But I only have one USB socket on my MacBook Pro. Not sure I'll always want to use it up on my headphones. It looks like the USB cable will be replaceable. So... already better than half the headphones on the market in this respect. Also, I believe they're planning some adaptors.
 
-The cans themselves - on the demo model- were pretty large. Might be an issue if you got a small head. Personally I'm used to huge cans with giant sound stages, so no issue here. 
 
 
Verdict : 8/10. Tentatively impressed. 9/10 at current price point, and have pre-ordered. I was about to write these off as a novelty dud, but I gave them a shot and really think they might set the world on fire this time next year.
 
Anyone else given 'em a try?
 
May 30, 2016 at 4:20 PM Post #10 of 43
  Did you ever have your hearing sensitivity or threshold levels checked before:wink: It is usually a subjective test in which the measurement result depends on the response from the examinee. But the response is either impossible or unreliable for certain examinees, such as infants. It would be ideal if there is an easy (i.e. non-intrusive) way to objectively measure the hearing threshold without needing examinee's response, Unfortunately, it is just simply not possible.  The OAE test in such situation can be used only to make assessment on examinee's hearing capability. But it can not provide information about examinee's exact hearing levels. 
 
So the claim by Nura is highly incredible...

This was cleared up for me by the doctor. 
 
The testing at the hearing tests usually tests for your hearing threshold, so can be inaccurate when approaching or below your hearing threshold. The Nuras are testing for different frequency responses above your hearing threshold. Super-threshold tests are all generally accurate. 
 
I have no science to back this up, but it does sorta make sense. 
 
May 31, 2016 at 10:22 AM Post #11 of 43
Wow, thanks for the very detailed info. Now they have a 30 day guaranteed refund, I don't really see any reason not to give it a try. Mostly curious because I want to know what the "perfect' frequency response should sound like to my ears.
 
It seems like they are targeting mainly ordinary consumers, but I thought they would have tried to hype up Nura headphones in the audiophile world because this technology seems like precisely the sort of thing audiophiles would drool over.
 
Jun 14, 2016 at 1:30 PM Post #12 of 43
If I am understanding this correctly, the Nura system is testing some aspect of your hearing and then correcting for it.  I imagine this would mean that if your hearing is relatively poor in, say, the 500-1000Hz region, the Nura would boost its output to bring your response into line with some preconceived "perfect" hearing-response curve. (BTW, I find it hard to believe that the response Nura is reading is feedback from auditory circuits in the brain.)
 
It is not clear to me why this would always be perceived as an *improvement* unless your hearing deviated fairly markedly from normal (as it does when people suffer sufficient hearing loss that human voices are difficult to hear clearly).  
 
Suppose that my hearing has some small anomalies in a couple frequency regions, but that my hearing has *always* been this way. (Ignore the gradual loss of very high frequencies that comes with age.)   Because my hearing has always been that way, my appreciation of music and sound generally has incorporated those anomalies. Perhaps if you suddenly heard as I do (through a "MyronG-Audio-Filter"), you would think everything sounded tubby or nasally or otherwise just plain awful - - - to me that is the way live music or a beautify voice sound, but to you it sounds like cheap speakers.
 
Nura audio manipulation might, of course, sometimes be a benefit:  Maybe sopranos or violins will no longer sound screechy or unpleasant to you. Maybe late romantic orchestral music won't seem so muddy, overblown or airless.
 
But what reason is there to believe that Nura's changes will always be *perceived* favourably?  Human preferences are undoubtedly constrained by biology and evolution, but they are also impacted by culture and individual experience.
 
This question will eventually be answered, or at least rendered moot, by listening to the Nuras for a few months.  That is coming for me - - - I'm a KickStarter supporter.   
beyersmile.png

 
Jun 15, 2016 at 12:53 AM Post #13 of 43
This was cleared up for me by the doctor. 

The testing at the hearing tests usually tests for your hearing threshold, so can be inaccurate when approaching or below your hearing threshold. The Nuras are testing for different frequency responses above your hearing threshold. Super-threshold tests are all generally accurate. 

I have no science to back this up, but it does sorta make sense. 


I'm just curious if you're familiar with Aumeo from a fairly recent Indiegogo campaign: http://igg.me/at/aumeo/x/5224594 -- AUMEO appears to do the very same thing using one's own headphones and their hardware (which tunes to people's hearing via a mobile app for iOS and Android). I've been really impressed with their iOS app alone, which can only be used as a limited standalone music player -- the hardware is calibrated with the same settings and is needed for use in all other apps/games, with other devices, etc. The AUMEO hardware further improves the experience well beyond the app's capabilities. And for me, the huge benefit is getting to use AUMEO with my favorite headphones/IEM's.

I backed Nura as well, but thus far, I'm not seeing why we need to pay far more for headphones when there's already a device on the market that seems to do the very same thing for a fraction of the price and works with all of the headphones/IEM's we already own and love (and the company will be working on a Bluetooth version that will link to wireless headphones, hopefully for version 2). I'm sort of hoping that you're familiar with AUMEO and might be able to shed some light. I tried asking the campaign a while ago if they could explain the technical differences between Nura and AUMEO, but I never saw a response. I can't imagine the Nura is doing anything much better or different based on what I've read and know from using AUMEO. Nura's end result could still be amazing, but for me, if the end result isn't that different, I'd rather have AUMEO that could literally breathe new life into all of my favorite headphones and IEM's thanks to my 35 year old aging ears ( . . . lol, why does everyone older than me laugh when I say that?!) instead of a one-trick pony where the same tech only works in one pair of headphones!

The good news is that the campaign is offering refunds if people aren't fully happy -- I guess they are hoping that people will be more willing to try them if there's a return guarantee, which is definitely a risk but is smart. Most people are bound to keep them if they like them, and even if some don't end up liking them, they'll still encourage people to try them since the company has such a nice return policy.

If you can shed some knowledge based on your experience, maybe it will help me understand . . . or confuse me more, lol. Even if you've never tried AUMEO, can you discern a difference from Aumeo's description vs. your short trial with Nura?

Thanks in advance!
 
Jun 21, 2016 at 12:18 PM Post #14 of 43
 
This was cleared up for me by the doctor. 

The testing at the hearing tests usually tests for your hearing threshold, so can be inaccurate when approaching or below your hearing threshold. The Nuras are testing for different frequency responses above your hearing threshold. Super-threshold tests are all generally accurate. 

I have no science to back this up, but it does sorta make sense. 


I'm just curious if you're familiar with Aumeo from a fairly recent Indiegogo campaign: http://igg.me/at/aumeo/x/5224594 -- AUMEO appears to do the very same thing using one's own headphones and their hardware (which tunes to people's hearing via a mobile app for iOS and Android). I've been really impressed with their iOS app alone, which can only be used as a limited standalone music player -- the hardware is calibrated with the same settings and is needed for use in all other apps/games, with other devices, etc. The AUMEO hardware further improves the experience well beyond the app's capabilities. And for me, the huge benefit is getting to use AUMEO with my favorite headphones/IEM's.

I'm an Android user, on Android it seems you need to have bought their product to use the app. Am I mistaken?
 
If you can shed some knowledge based on your experience, maybe it will help me understand . . . or confuse me more, lol. Even if you've never tried AUMEO, can you discern a difference from Aumeo's description vs. your short trial with Nura?


By reading both products descriptions it seems to me that the logic behind them is different. Aumeo seems to be using your ears as an instrument, by using test tones. Nura has microphones inside, picking up the signals coming from your ears in response to the test sounds pumped in. That's how I understand it, at least.
 
Jul 6, 2016 at 11:46 PM Post #15 of 43
  This was cleared up for me by the doctor. 
 
The testing at the hearing tests usually tests for your hearing threshold, so can be inaccurate when approaching or below your hearing threshold. The Nuras are testing for different frequency responses above your hearing threshold. Super-threshold tests are all generally accurate. 
 
I have no science to back this up, but it does sorta make sense. 

 
This is interesting, but odd. How do we gauge that a "super-threshold test" result is "accurate", if it's testing for how our ears respond to frequencies that we can't hear? In other words, how do we verify that the results are "accurate" in any way?
 
Also is quite different to their claim on the Kickstarter page here (although I understand they had to simplify things for the average reader):

"The sound that is produced by our ears and detected by our headphones’ internal microphone is encoded with information about how well you actually heard the sound that went in."
 
The information isn't really about how well we heard the sound. From what you said above, the supposed "accurate" information returned is not about our hearing (since its outside our hearing threshold), but probably just reflective of other properties (shape? size?) of the outer/middle ear and cochlear.
 
I'm just really curious as to how much information is available with OAEs, and the paper they linked to (http://emedicine.medscape.com/article/835943-overview) seem to state the opposite of what they're saying they can do with it.
 
"The primary purpose of otoacoustic emission (OAE) tests is to determine cochlear status, specifically hair cell function. This information can be used to (1) screen hearing (particularly in neonates, infants, or individuals with developmental disabilities), (2) partially estimate hearing sensitivity within a limited range, (3) differentiate between the sensory and neural components of sensorineural hearing loss, and (4) test for functional (feigned) hearing loss."
 
"OAE testing often is used as a screening tool to determine the presence or absence of cochlear function, although analysis can be performed for individual cochlear frequency regions. OAEs cannot be used to fully describe an individual's auditory thresholds, but they can help question or validate other threshold measures (eg, in suspected functional [feigned] hearing loss), or they can provide information about the site of the lesion." 
 

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