superlowfi said:

It's also interesting to consider the history of the original Orpheus and it's effect on Sennheiser's product range.

The HD650 could be seen as a direct child of the Orpheus, in a lineage that goes from HE90 -> HE60 -> HD600 -> HD650.

The musicality and sound signature of the HD650 I can see has shades of HE90 in it. 

I wonder if this new Orpheus is the first step of a sound signature that will proliferate into Sennheiser's product range.

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that's quite a stretch given that the original orpheus (like its successor) was an electrostatic can and the hd650 is a dynamic can. two fundamentally different headphone technologies there. one was the most expensive headphone system ever made at that time with only a limited number produced, and the other was a mass market product. like comparing apples and oranges i'd say.

I see this headphone as a demonstration of what is possible....and just like formula 1 racing, the technology will filter down to our consumer choices over the coming years.

superlowfi said:

There are a lot of people in this thread who assume that Sennheiser built this for a select few. That is wrong. Sennheiser built this for headphone lovers everywhere. 

We can debate and argue over their particular design decisions, but their goal was simply to develop the best headphone they could without budget constraints.

They built it for audio and headphone enthusiasts. 

Almost everyone on this forum will have an opportunity to hear this if they so choose. Sennheiser will be parading this system around as a source of company pride for decades to come, they still trot out the HE90/HEV90 which is now over twenty years old.

They didn't even really have to sell any consumer units. Imagine as a thought experiment they simply built the unit for touring around and didn't offer any for sale to customers. Would that somehow be "better"? If anything they are doing headphone enthusiasts a favour by offering it for sale for those select few that have the inclination to spend that much on a headphone system, but it's clear this wasn't really designed from the start to be a mass market product and that is kind of the point.

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it's a fair assumption to make. let's not overlook the fact that sennheiser are building these to sell. so while many might get the opportunity to spend a brief time with the orpheus that's touring the world, only a relative few will have the means to enjoy ownership of one.

sal1950 said:

+1  You seem to get the point that so many are missing.  Thanks Sennheiser for doing the R and D to bring us your best shot at the ultimate SOTA headphone system you know how to  build. Yes few can afford it, I never will. but that's true about every product category in high end audio. I'll never own a Continuum or Onedof $200,000 turntable, or a Naim $240,000 amp,  Wilson Alexandria $210,000 speakers, etc, etc, etc.  You know you could lose $2 million in a SOTA system real fast today.
Crazy, yep.  Might some be over priced, yep.  But that's just the cost of having the VERY BEST in High End and it's  no different than lots of other big boy toys. Ya got to have the cash to play. I don't.  

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doubt that many folks are missing the point that this is a statement product that is beyond the reach of most of us who are excited about it

deafanddumb said:

I see this headphone as a demonstration of what is possible....and just like formula 1 racing, the technology will filter down to our consumer choices over the coming years.

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did the technology from the first orpheus trickle down to sennheiser's dynamic cans?

analogsurviver said:

  Trouble is that lower gaps mean higher capacitance (linear relationship), lower bass SPL capability, high tension means higher resonant frequency ( leading towards midbass hump ) , etc. That is why Lambda got modified into Lambda Pro - by increasing the gap. Decreasing basically means reducing the performance on all counts except ultimate HF extension of the DRIVER itself - the mass of the driver is any air trapped in gaps AND "holes" in the stator, as the mass of the diaphragm itself is VERY tiny compared to the air trapped.
I seriously doubt that now well into the digital age, where bass down to DC can be reliably put onto the recording, Senn would risk coming on the market with the bass limited headphone which is otherwise predestined to be the best.

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I know both history and technical argumentation. The first one is for me irrelevant : Stax did use this path, ok. Is it the best one ? Not sure. Looking at Sennheiser's choice for amplification (no true class A, Vpp maybe lower), Stax's choices based on technical assumptions are not meant to be the best out there. Maybe Sennheiser did implement some hardware EQ à la RIAA to cope with potential reduced gap / lower bias ?
 
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analogsurviver said:

  Stats will NEVER be able to compete with dynamic drivers in the bass ( just try some Audeze in a really hot bass recording of a live concert - and then try to replicate that wit electrostatics... - no go ). Inherent limitation(s) - I am glad they are as good as they are, which is acceptable for most, but not all music.

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Looking at bass level, that is the case for full range ESL, but not for well designed cans with a perfect seal. And the FR curves strongly correlate with that.
To my ears, ortho and e-dyn have slower decay and more grain (a lot more for ortho) in the low bass area, then the feeling of thicker and more real bass. But absolutely not more level.
I think the keyword is "decay" : in real life music, we feel the bass with our entire body, so the whole body is part of the decay. E-stat cans' decay is clearly way too fast in that regard.
And even if I disagree with your craving for very extended FR in the highs, I do hear your argumentation about needed dynamics in high frequencies vs. "real life", that is an inherent limitation of ES.
Just in case, my most recent experience with ortho is an LCD-3F through EC 4-45, which is not that bad considering "ortho bass", but I've to confess I've unfortunately never listened to an Abyss.
 

Originally Posted by analogsurviver /img/forum/go_quote.gif
  Well, my major concern is not safety. Pure performance. But that does not mean I am crazy enough to further pursue deadly audio, no matter how great it sounds; even if of my own design.
 
Come to think of it, that marble enclosure may not be just bling. It is an INSULATOR - and yes, ESL amps tend to like and sing best without any metallic case at all.  
It could have been some moulded plastic, but that we will hopefully see in Baby =rpheus 2 some day.

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Yes, I've forgotten those marble properties. Considering there's only 5V in the cable, not sure there are things lethal in this enclosure. So it means most of the heat is dissipated through cups heatsink...and now we're back to square one : how did Sennheiser manage so good figures (FR and THD) and top of the hill SQ a priori with so low heat dissipation ?
 
Oh, one last thing : capitals are not very pleasant on thread discussions...they look shouty and kinda authoritative, not more convincing
 
Ali

analogsurviver said:

   
The number of people who have had at least an afternoon or evening with the original Orpheus must be therefore relatively small. There were 300 sets sold, I doubt this averages to more than 10 people per set for an "afternoon/evening" long session.

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I think the best way to 'fast track' a demo in such restricted time frames is take a USB stick with your AIFF of a track you know really well, with a good mix of vocals, dynamics and bass content, and of course very well recorded. When I test new gear or components out, I go back to a batch of 3 or 4 recordings for a memory check. I have found I can remember the sound signature of these tracks in demos I had over a year ago. If you listen and hear new details, or it sounds closer to the master, (more realistic than before), you know right there.
 
I also have a couple of 'test' tracks with female vocals on, which I know when she hits those high notes, if the treble is not right, it will show right away. Nowhere to hide kind of test.
 
DO NOT demo anything with the manufactures tracks, you don't know them, you will be distracted, they will be picked to sound good on that equipment. Avoid the 'con' of hifi shows.

I'm not sure why there is this discussion on safety of ES headphone? Because the voltage is a large number??
I never heard about any victim of electrocution by using ES headphones. Using a hairdrier might be a different case.
Safety is not a major concern, safety is a must have, very simple.
The circuit must be designed that in case of any failure, it must shut down in a split second.
 
Will be interesting to hear though, what made the Orpheus II shut down, if we ever get any insider info on that...

sennheiser said:

   
The new Orpheus is not a limited edition. Yet it is also not a mass-market product. A product of this caliber is naturally limited. Because it is made by hand, it is impossible to make more than 250 of them a year.

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Thanks, I figured something like this was the case
 
At some point I would love to see a documentary about how they were developed and how they are made, interview with development team and so forth! I'd love for it to be at least 20 min in length and quite in-depth. If you make it right it can be a memento of "the here and now". Something which Sennheiser can look at in 30 years and say "this was when we made the orpheus 2".
 
Sounds good? No?

judgmentday said:

 
I'm sure that all those wealthy individuals listed by the Forbes Magazine can purchase the new Orpheus 2 like me buying a chewing gum but I bet that none of them have the set of hears that I have. Honestly, I rather be poor like dirt with my golden ears than having all the money in the world and being deaf.

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I'm pretty sure that the only way being rich makes you deaf is if you stuff all your money in your ears.

analogsurviver said:

 
Well, my major concern is not safety. Pure performance. But that does not mean I am crazy enough to further pursue deadly audio, no matter how great it sounds; even if of my own design.

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Honest question, has anyone ever been electrocuted by an eletrostatic headphone in normal usage (i.e. not in the bathtub or in the rain)? I've never heard of it happening.

vandyman said:

   
Honest question, has anyone ever been electrocuted by an eletrostatic headphone in normal usage (i.e. not in the bathtub or in the rain)? I've never heard of it happening.

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Not to my knowledge. And I do hope such news never reaches me.
 
I did have a very close encounter once while developing my amp - mid/late 80s. Classical stupidity that happens by accident; one hand grounded, the other slipped and touched the direct output of the output tube plate ; 850 VDC , 65 mA with no signal,  1700 Vpp 10 kHz square wave. Together with my chair, I flew 2 metres away. The point I touched IT turned into an approx. 4 mm square "hole" on the tip of the finger, no scorch marks, simply gone. 
 
I was lucky the signal has been high frequency, were it anything around the hearbeat frequency, I would have not lived to tell the story.
 
I remember drinking astonishing quantities of  liquid for a couple of days after that. 
 
Remember, the very same electrical "point" I accidentally and unwillingly touched is any of the 4 stators or cable leading to those stators on any electrostatic headphone. Should the insulation fail and you are "caressing" a thermal radiator ( notoriously known for good electrical grounding ) ...
 
No commercial amp for electrostatic headphones is not nearly as powerful and therefore dangerous. But unsafe level is achievable trough transformer coupled normal power amps for loudspeakers. Remember, electrostatics need current and therefore power for the high frequencies - the most efficient subwoofer imaginable IS electrostatic "ceiling", which would have efficiency for all practical purposes equal that of the electrical efficiency of the amplifier. Now go and see how many acoustical watts produces say a symphonic orchestra ( around 1-2 W ) and you will find such electrostatic subwoofer, if properly designed, could easily meet this requirement. On very low power amp, in single digit watt output. Because in the middle of its usable range, not being affected either by compliance of the diaphragm nor the effective moving mass ( mostly air in the gaps ) nor electrical losses, an electrostatic has zero losses in efficiency when converting electrical input into electrical output - something such subwoofer , if properly executed, should be capable of approaching in reality. In reality, due to large size of the driver(s) required, it would have to be built on site - a most impractical proposition, not to mention the cost.
 
A stroke of the cymbals, even when powering headphone size driver, is an entirely different matter...- here, ANY amount of power you can get into an electrostatic is still not going to be enough; remember, it is not only the amplitude, it is also the phase of the signal, both of which are getting harder to achieve with the rising frequency.  Any amount of electronics wizzardy is required in order to satisfy the driver (and consequently our ear...) while keeping the power to a safe level. 
 
Which has finally been achieved by you-know-who.

I am interested in reviewing these. I agree to the terms and conditions.

This is a review opportunity thread correct?

Jkjk

Guys, here is a great idea:
 
I'll buy the Orpheus II and charge $100 per hour, per appointment only. Bring your own music, hell, I'd even let you listening to my music collection!
If there is enough demand I may buy more units.
What about $500 for 8hrs. in your home audition?
 
This way, we all can enjoy this piece of art and don't have to pay $55K, well it is just an idea!

astrostar59 said:

  I think the best way to 'fast track' a demo in such restricted time frames is take a USB stick with your AIFF of a track you know really well, with a good mix of vocals, dynamics and bass content, and of course very well recorded. When I test new gear or components out, I go back to a batch of 3 or 4 recordings for a memory check. I have found I can remember the sound signature of these tracks in demos I had over a year ago. If you listen and hear new details, or it sounds closer to the master, (more realistic than before), you know right there.
 
I also have a couple of 'test' tracks with female vocals on, which I know when she hits those high notes, if the treble is not right, it will show right away. Nowhere to hide kind of test.
 
DO NOT demo anything with the manufactures tracks, you don't know them, you will be distracted, they will be picked to sound good on that equipment. Avoid the 'con' of hifi shows.

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All good comments - with one fly in the ointment; the most interesting things are usually not accessible with your software or hardware. Sennheiser Orpheus demo in Munich was so; the source was not even in sight, volume was fixed, the people there said nothing can be done unless I wait for likely an hour or more for the person responsible to be available again, but no guarantee it will be possible. I listened under these conditions for a couple of minutes  and found it pretty pointless...
 
I did get to play HiFiMan He-1000 using my master recordings off my modified Korg MR-1000; Dr. Fang Bian being present - and the quality of these masters raised eyebrows of any lucky enough to sample a few moments of this demo. 

I think you are mistaken - most who have lived with the original Orpheus would concur with it being the best available at the time it was introduced and for a very, very long time afterwards. Even after 25 years has elapsed and the availability of new materials and manufacturing processes it can still hold its own against anything else and many would argue its still top of the heap overall. Other products now do some things better but as a complete package there is still very little else that comes close.
 
Its not that the HE60 is unpopular its lack of availability and being crippled by the HEV70.
HE60's don't come up very often unlike most other stats like Stax, they were not produced in huge numbers over many decades.
 
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superlowfi said:

  I'm not sure how many people here heard the original Orpheus, while it is a good nice sound, it was more produced to be something legitimately different. It is in no way shape or form the best headphone ever made for every single ear. I dare say even if it was priced at 1/10 what it is currently priced at the interest in it would be scaled down quite a bit. The relative unpopularity of the HE60 somewhat attests to that. 
 
It's produced to be a halo one off engineering and design spectacle. Hear it if you have a chance, Sennheiser will be parading it around everywhere, but don't assume just because of it's eye popping price tag that it is some otherworldly contraption that would necessarily replace your favorite headphones at home. I don't think the original Orpheus would qualify for that role either.

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