CHORD ELECTRONICS DAVE

astrostar59 said:

I don't have the DAVE but I do use the P10 power regenerator. It has upgraded my whole system TBH, better bass, cleaner and smoother sound, wider soundstage. I would explain it as you may have noticed how your system sounds better at 2am in the morning - well that is the clean mains time v midday sound. Double that difference and that is what you get with a P10, permanent clean power and constant high sound quality.








I also found an external LPS powering my Mac Mini gives another boost as well. This may no be possible with some servers, but is possible with a Mac Mini or a PC.

[COLOR=FF4400]
[/COLOR]
Finally I found USB is not good for high end audio. It has come a long way in the last few years, but I still didn't like the impact of it on the sound. I went AOIP with a Rednet and that gave a further level of smoothness and clean detail and lost the final vestiges of 'digital' to the sound. Any treble edge or glair remaining with USB was now gone. The Rednet may not suit a DAVE though as AES/SPDIF is limited to 192K. I use Redbook and NOS into an R-2R DAC so slightly different. My USB chain was nearly £2K of fixers. I have tried Offramp 5, M2Tech EVO full stack, various regen and filtering, TotalDAC USB cable.

Click to expand...

Ah ! But what happens to the cable as it enters the house wall and traces back through the cabling in the building and out into the street and a long the street over hills and Vales over and along many a leafy mile back to the substation and on to another High voltage conversion substation and thence on wards back though the high voltage overhead cables to the generator. Do you think the last few feet of unobtainium and grapheme wrapped wonder copper really can make that much of a serious impact?

dmance said:

This got me thinking...what if DAVE could sound better with an external PSU option. I trust the brilliant engineering at Chord...but they may have underestimated how good their products can be made to sound.

Click to expand...

I've thought about this, too, but is that even possible, to power a DAVE with a linear power supply?

mojo ideas said:

Ah ! But what happens to the cable as it enters the house wall and traces back through the cabling in the building and out into the street and a long the street over hills and Vales over and along many a leafy mile back to the substation and on to another High voltage conversion substation and thence on wards back though the high voltage overhead cables to the generator. Do you think the last few feet of unobtainium and grapheme wrapped wonder copper really can make that much of a serious impact?

Click to expand...

Good point, John.  What you have stated is the counterpoint to my argument and it is valid.  There's not much you can do about the miles of cabling outside of your home.  Here in the U.S., for those of us who own a house (as opposed to living in an apartment or condominium), obtaining a dedicated line is not difficult nor expensive.  Following Vince Galbo's guidelines almost exactly, I was able to install a 20A dedicated line using 50 feet of standard 10g Romex from my listening room to my main panel for about $400 and is easily one of the best value upgrades I have done.  It's amazing how my sound just opened up and became more relaxed and effortless.  Without this line, the impact of this last few feet of unobtainium that you describe is definitely considerably less.  Obviously, each person will need to decide the value of such upgrades.
 
These last few feet of cabling that connect your components to the wall can do harm, however.  For example, if this mains cable is even more restrictive that the line before it, you can make a compromised situation even worse.  At the very least, it would make sense to me that you at least match the gauge of cabling used from your wall to your main panel and such a chord doesn't have to be expensive.
 
For very compromised situations where there are no good power solutions, if it were me, I'd get a TT or stick with Mojo.  It's fortuitous that you have a good solution for every situation .

Evolvist,
I am 100% convinced that the 2qute is markedly better with 1) an external PSU and 2) a battery isolator on the USB power pin. Both of these actions drastically reduce the analog noise encroaching on the core circuits...to audible effect. Rob Watts says don't bother...but I say, hell yes bother because I can hear it.
Will the same argument hold true for the DAVE? I don't know, I don't have one to try. Obviously it's a newer design and things may have improved. It's too bad that the AC power is converted on-board rather than externally because that means we will never know how much better DAVE could be. Shame.
Dan

dmance said:

Evolvist,
I am 100% convinced that the 2qute is markedly better with 1) an external PSU and 2) a battery isolator on the USB power pin. Both of these actions drastically reduce the analog noise encroaching on the core circuits...to audible effect. Rob Watts says don't bother...but I say, hell yes bother because I can hear it.
Will the same argument hold true for the DAVE? I don't know, I don't have one to try. Obviously it's a newer design and things may have improved. It's too bad that the AC power is converted on-board rather than externally because that means we will never know how much better DAVE could be. Shame.
Dan

Click to expand...

The 2Qute is not the DAVE and what you are suggesting won't be easy.  Of course, you would violate the warranty.  Now, if you buy a DAVE and are so unhappy with how it sounds because you believe it is due to its inferior switching PSU and if you think you can produce a better PSU than Rob can for the DAVE, you will have to match the performance specs Rob has listed in his post.  I can tell you I have not seen any linear PSU that has specs as good as this and so good luck.  I will be following your adventures with great interest:
 
http://www.head-fi.org/t/766517/chord-electronics-dave/4035#post_12770432

Shunyata's response to the "last few feet" argument can be found in the "Power Cord Misconceptions" section:

http://www.shunyata.com/index.php/support/faqs

astrostar59 said:

 

I don't have the DAVE but I do use the P10 power regenerator. It has upgraded my whole system TBH, better bass, cleaner and smoother sound, wider soundstage. I would explain it as you may have noticed how your system sounds better at 2am in the morning - well that is the clean mains time v midday sound. Double that difference and that is what you get with a P10, permanent clean power and constant high sound quality.
 
 
 
 

 
 
I also found an external LPS powering my Mac Mini gives another boost as well. This may no be possible with some servers, but is possible with a Mac Mini or a PC.
 

Finally I found USB is not good for high end audio. It has come a long way in the last few years, but I still didn't like the impact of it on the sound. I went AOIP with a Rednet and that gave a further level of smoothness and clean detail and lost the final vestiges of 'digital' to the sound. Any treble edge or glair remaining with USB was now gone. The Rednet may not suit a DAVE though as AES/SPDIF is limited to 192K. I use Redbook and NOS into an R-2R DAC so slightly different. My USB chain was nearly £2K of fixers. I have tried Offramp 5, M2Tech EVO full stack, various regen and filtering, TotalDAC USB cable.

Click to expand...

 
You have a nice setup.  I have the same Mac Mini with Uptone MMK.  Mine is powered by a Paul Hynes SR7.  OSX is run off SD card and music drive is streamed from a Thunderbolt drive.  
 
I have compared microRendu powered by the Paul Hynes SR7 against a recently purchased SOtM sMS-200 which is also powered by the SR7.  Compared against the LPS-1, I have found the SR7 to be superior.  USB cable used is a Clarity Cables Natural USB which is one of few USB cables that has been actually measured to meet true USB 2.0 spec (90 ohms differential impedance).  This cable outperformed and replaced my Curious USB which outperformed and replaced my TotalDac USB.  I have recently compared it against the RedNet 3 via SPDIF:
 

 

 
With each connected to my Chord DAVE, RedNet 3 sounded very good, a bit better than the microRendu with iFi 9V PSU.  As you suggested, details were a bit cleaner.  With the microRendu powered by the SR7, soundstage of the microRendu was much bigger with more air and much better dynamics but clarity with RedNet was still a bit better.  In comparison, microRendu sounded a bit muffled.  Which one is better between these two, I think it's a toss up.  It depends on which qualities you value more.
 
The winner of the group by a fair margin, however, was the SOtM sMS-200 powered by the SR7.  This is now my new reference front end with my DAVE and surpasses the microRendu by a fair margin and for less money ($450).  In fact, it is the least expensive device of this group.  It matched every bit the clarity and the smoothness of the RedNet but the soundstage was bigger still and with extraordinary dynamics.  Compared to RedNet, RedNet sounds flat.  Treble edge or glare?  I'm not hearing any of it.  This device is very clean and the PSU has a lot to do with it.  Part of this is almost certainly due to DAVE's exceptional USB implementation which incorporates galvanic isolation.  While the RedNet 3 holds much promise, I suspect its downfall is its PSU.  
 
Regarding your system, consider replacing your HDPlex.  With your Mac Mini, you will be quite surprised how much better the Paul Hynes supplies are.  I say this because I have an HDPlex also in addition to a Teradak, Paul Pang, Kenneth Lau and LPS-1.  None of them are in the SR7's league.  Since Paul Hynes is based in Scotland, it should be easier for you to audition one.

kennyb123 said:

Shunyata's response to the "last few feet" argument can be found in the "Power Cord Misconceptions" section:

http://www.shunyata.com/index.php/support/faqs

Click to expand...

Nice reference, Kenny.  I know you have a Shunyata Denali as well.  Just amazingly good.

dmance said:

It's too bad that the AC power is converted on-board rather than externally because that means we will never know how much better DAVE could be. Shame.

Click to expand...

It's not at all a shame for me that the AC is converted inside the DAVE. Because the integrated small transportable package was a big selling point for me.
Us audiophiles always have to fret about something, but I'm glad that this is one aspect I don't have to fret about - because I have no choice.    

romaz said:

  The winner of the group by a fair margin, however, was the SOtM sMS-200 powered by the SR7.  This is now my new reference front end with my DAVE and surpasses the microRendu by a fair margin and for less money ($450).    
 

Click to expand...

You don't hang about do you? 
 
How does the SotM compare with the mR when both driven by a lesser supply than the SR7? Like the LPS-1 for example.
 
How do you have the software configured to drive the SotM? As a HQP+NAA user, with broad intention to add Roon one day, it's easy with the mR because it is both HPQ-ready and Roon-ready, so it just works. But not obvious how the same 2 apps would drive the SotM.     
 
EDIT: On further searching, looks like SOtM can handle both HQP and Roon

Just thought I'd add my experience- I own an Entreq Silver Minimum and Ertha Apollo cable. Recently, I added an Everest binding post. I am using a BNC to RCA adaptor on those unused DX Inputs of the Dave, and I connected the Entreq to this. The Entreq certainly takes time to settle. A-Bing does nothing, I hear literally very little difference (some, but not much). But leave the Entreq a few days, and then remove it, and suddenly the sound becomes much less vivid, less clear, less detailed, and just overall noisier. It is, frankly, obvious. Worth a shot.
 
Apart from grounding, I've also found power cords to make a difference. I do all my power cord testing on the Dave, simply because it's the easiest. By plugging just a single cord into the Dave, I can test that cord's entire effect because the Dave would be both amp and dac. I have found very clearly discernible differences in power cords- differences that persist across different setups (like on my friends' hifi setups). In fact, I'd venture to say that I've found some power cords' effect on sound is more significant than interconnects. Doesn't mean that one needs to go out and spend a fortune on cords- in fact, my favourite so far costs under $500 for a 6 foot cord. I like this guy's stuff so much, I'm asking him to build me a headphone cable too (he seldom does so, focusing only on hi-fi). 

romaz said:

... Part of this is almost certainly due to DAVE's exceptional USB implementation which incorporates galvanic isolation.

Click to expand...

Romaz,
On the issue of a USB source sounding better for one reason or another, I trust we all understand it has nothing to do with the 'bits' or their integral transmission. Modern USB interfaces (source and DAC) get this right. We all know what digital errors sound like (pops, snaps, crackles) and they have nothing to do with staging, treble glare, musicality.

Everything we regard as USB deficiencies are all attributed to noise on the USB +5v pins...seeping into the DAC and then mucking with the internal clock timing or radiating around to the analog section. Variables on the source (server, software, psu, etc) just vary the disturbances on +5v of the USB cable.

Asynchronous USB has 100% fidelity from a digital data perspective. What we hear is the effects of low level analog noise.No one source is inherently 'better' from a digital perspective - they may just have reduced effects on the USB power pins.

Yes, these are mitigated by Galvanic isolation, I suppose, but for some reason the noisy ripples on the USB still contaminate the DAC. My evidence is my ears (and brain) with my exaSound and 2qute...both galvanically isolated but both transformed for the better by a regulated battery inserted into the USB interface.

Maybe Rob nailed this issue on the DAVE but maybe not.

Dan

romaz - thanks for the thought-provoking post on the SOtM sms200 and the Shunyata HC cables. 
 
I had been thinking about the sms200 since seeing the Hans Beekhuyzen review and I have just reserved a unit which should be shipping into the UK within the next couple of weeks.  Like the TheAttorney, I too would be interested to learn what you thought about how well the LPS-1 paired with the sms200.  I upgraded my LPS-1 power lead to the Sonore DC-4, which I have found to add more authority and refinement to the mRendu sound (the stock lead sounding a little lean and bright).
 
Also, I think I will soon be in a position to take a loan of a Shunyata Alpha HC cable.  A few months ago, after having tried an Alpha Analogue, I contacted Shunyata for their advice on best pairing with the DAVE.  During the course of those exchanges I received replies from two different people at Shunyata with advice that led me to feel the analogue was probably the better pairing compared to the digital cable, but I was also encouraged to try out the Alpha HC cable if I could.  Knowing that you would have been testing them also with your speaker system, can I just check if your positive comments about the Shunyata cables reflected their use with the DAVE with its headphone amp hat on?   I do not have a dedicated mains line for my music system and having one installed is not a realistic option.  Also, I do not see myself feeling able to splash out on a Dinali, so I am wondering just how much benefit I would get from a Shunyata HC cable.
 
 

romaz said:

  Nice reference, Kenny.  I know you have a Shunyata Denali as well.  Just amazingly good.

Click to expand...

Yup, the D6000/S.  Amazingly good may just be an understatement.  Really stunning to me the noise I had been listening through all these years.  And that a power conditioner can actually improve dynamics is stunning to me too.

Howdy,
 
Some questions on the DAVE:
 
 
Has anyone experimented with HF Filter setting on the Dave?  What are the implications on the signature sound of the DAC when it's turned ON? 
 
What am I 'giving up' in performance when using the balanced outputs vs. singled ended?  In other words, am I sacrificing channel separation? noise floor? cross-talk? R and L channel level matching? etc..
 
Has anyone paired this dac with Ayre preamps?  Could you comment on the sound?
 
 
Thanks!!