+1 Well said. In a perfect world , without hype, perhaps price alone would denote quality.
Schiit Yggdrasil Impressions thread
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+1 Well said. In a perfect world , without hype, perhaps price alone would denote quality.
noshortcuts
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High end makers/sellers love this kind of thinking: "It costs more + I can afford it + I must be smart because I earned lots of money + being so smart I naturally understand the economics of building fine things compared to less fine things = I'm going to purchase expensive things so my things will be finer than what so many others buy".
More on topic of OP: I like listening to music converted through YGGY to speakers and look forward to an opportunity to listen critically and make some comparisons and thoughtful notes so I can try and contribute to this thread. Thank you to those who have already!!!
More on topic of OP: I like listening to music converted through YGGY to speakers and look forward to an opportunity to listen critically and make some comparisons and thoughtful notes so I can try and contribute to this thread. Thank you to those who have already!!!
hifimckinney
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I agree because Yggy is perceived as inexpensive because we have DACs in the range of $90K but for a normal, service class audiophile, $2300 is stilll a big money to shell out on a DAC. I have been through Fulla, Bifrost and Gungnir and performance of all these would tell you that Schiit understands sound. For me, when I compared my Squeezebox with Gungnir in terms of sonic, it wasn't a big gap however in terms of enjoyment, it was a big difference.
So, my philosophy says, 1x sonic difference can produce 10x or 20x of difference in enjoyment.
Wildcatsare1
Headphoneus Supremus
David,
What DACs are better, could you describe the sonic attributes that make it superior?
How much does it cost to have a Porsche moniker on the hood versus Lotus, both go just as fast, handle as well, but the Lotus is priced significantly less.
Price isn't everything,in fact most pricing, especially of esoteric brands is illusion, smoke and mirrors. Make the buyer feel special, warm, fuzzy, give him something to show off to the chicks (cars not audio) and set a premium price.
Cheers
Argo Duck
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We seem to have veered from 'impressions' into a discussion of VFM, but FWIW...
My interest in the Yggy springs from it doing things differently.
Let's look at delta-sigma as the key contrast case, as it's the dominant DAC technology. It is a mature, well-understood approach. By mature I mean dead-ends have been eliminated, there's a significant shared engineering understanding of how to achieve good results for a given price-point, and so on.
Given a mature technology of this sort, how does one improve on it? It one commits to this technology it seems the only way is to spend more money to get better parts, increase labor on the circuit lay-out and design, perform more trial-and-error, better power-supplies, more testing etc.
Basically, given a dominant, mature technology the only way to produce a significantly better device with this technology is to spend more money. Significantly more. Law of diminishing returns.
In other words, with a dominant technology like DS there really is - all things being equal - no way a 1K DAC can be better than 2K can be better than 4K etc.
Or, we try a different technology. Enter Yggy. Trying something different could turn out a worse product or could actually be more expensive to build for many reasons. But if the risk pays off a different cost/performance equation may result. That is, the usual "what quality for what price" curve needs different parameters.
In this case - the game gets changed - it's possible for a 2K device to be better than the alternative tech's 3 or 4 or whatever K device. (As noted above, it could be worse too. In this case we have Schiit's and Theta's pedigree to limit this risk).
So far it seems from impressions Yggy may have succeeded. I intend to find out later this year or next. I don't care whether it competes against $10K dacs: I do however require it to be at least as good as a $2299 DS DAC - so that I haven't wasted my money - and if it turns out to be better...well then, color me very, very happy.
My interest in the Yggy springs from it doing things differently.
Let's look at delta-sigma as the key contrast case, as it's the dominant DAC technology. It is a mature, well-understood approach. By mature I mean dead-ends have been eliminated, there's a significant shared engineering understanding of how to achieve good results for a given price-point, and so on.
Given a mature technology of this sort, how does one improve on it? It one commits to this technology it seems the only way is to spend more money to get better parts, increase labor on the circuit lay-out and design, perform more trial-and-error, better power-supplies, more testing etc.
Basically, given a dominant, mature technology the only way to produce a significantly better device with this technology is to spend more money. Significantly more. Law of diminishing returns.
In other words, with a dominant technology like DS there really is - all things being equal - no way a 1K DAC can be better than 2K can be better than 4K etc.
Or, we try a different technology. Enter Yggy. Trying something different could turn out a worse product or could actually be more expensive to build for many reasons. But if the risk pays off a different cost/performance equation may result. That is, the usual "what quality for what price" curve needs different parameters.
In this case - the game gets changed - it's possible for a 2K device to be better than the alternative tech's 3 or 4 or whatever K device. (As noted above, it could be worse too. In this case we have Schiit's and Theta's pedigree to limit this risk).
So far it seems from impressions Yggy may have succeeded. I intend to find out later this year or next. I don't care whether it competes against $10K dacs: I do however require it to be at least as good as a $2299 DS DAC - so that I haven't wasted my money - and if it turns out to be better...well then, color me very, very happy.
jcx
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the economics of things that can be done on chips is a little different - some chips are made on Billon US Dollar semiconductor fabrication lines, staffed by specialists with decades of inside experience just getting/keeping the whole process running repeatably
if the demand interests companies with the Fabs and design teams then often the only performance competition is from other big companies with the same investments in tooling and people
but once the chip is designed then they do grind them out "cheaply" in incremental cost compared to anything made by any other tech - so "the best" we know how to do technically in some electronic domains can be done at low cost too
I don't know what MSB is doing today but older product pcb photos, appeals to the discrete precision R ladder's expense was laughable to those who know the tech - today that really is "doing it wrong"
it is reasonable to believe that a pair of AD5791 per channel do outperform discrete tech even when spending 10s, up to 100x as much for the pile of parts
and we have the whole over the top packaging and cosmetics in high end audio - easily several times more money spent on what you look at than what you listen to - the insiders really do call the Rhodium plated solid silver RCA, ect "jewelry"
CNC milled from solid slabs of inches thick Aluminum interlocking clamshells can give minor product performance advantages - but few HP/Agilent/Tektronix ect even 6 figure test and measurement instruments for professionals ever use such construction
if the demand interests companies with the Fabs and design teams then often the only performance competition is from other big companies with the same investments in tooling and people
but once the chip is designed then they do grind them out "cheaply" in incremental cost compared to anything made by any other tech - so "the best" we know how to do technically in some electronic domains can be done at low cost too
I don't know what MSB is doing today but older product pcb photos, appeals to the discrete precision R ladder's expense was laughable to those who know the tech - today that really is "doing it wrong"
it is reasonable to believe that a pair of AD5791 per channel do outperform discrete tech even when spending 10s, up to 100x as much for the pile of parts
and we have the whole over the top packaging and cosmetics in high end audio - easily several times more money spent on what you look at than what you listen to - the insiders really do call the Rhodium plated solid silver RCA, ect "jewelry"
CNC milled from solid slabs of inches thick Aluminum interlocking clamshells can give minor product performance advantages - but few HP/Agilent/Tektronix ect even 6 figure test and measurement instruments for professionals ever use such construction
evillamer
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The only issue I can forsee with the AD5791, is that it is a very specialized chip. What if Analog Devices can't keep up production, or worse still... some medical MRI company or some military or NASA decides to snap up all chips for their own use and drive prices sky high...
blasjw
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Arglebargle. LoL. You don't here that often. Is this guy from the UK or something? Mike Moffat I mean.
Wino
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David,
What DACs are better, could you describe the sonic attributes that make it superior?
How much does it cost to have a Porsche moniker on the hood versus Lotus, both go just as fast, handle as well, but the Lotus is priced significantly less.
Price isn't everything,in fact most pricing, especially of esoteric brands is illusion, smoke and mirrors. Make the buyer feel special, warm, fuzzy, give him something to show off to the chicks (cars not audio) and set a premium price.
Cheers
A top flight DAC will rival top flight analog…. we're talking very expensive… diminishing returns apply… go listen to 150-250K well set up systems...
Price "isn't everything" sort of… "in fact most pricing, especially of esoteric brands is illusion"… please give references of these...
High to ultra high end objects of desire always are more sought after, and have greater future value and have greater longevity…. brand after brand…
Wino
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Have you heard/owned MSB ? Granted, they like many 'audio jewelry' companies are overpriced somewhat, however they nearly never resell…. says a lot...
Another high priced DAC I'm dying to hear that has similar discrete ladder DAC 'modules' is TotalDAC… also not resold often...
Please explain why "it is reasonable to believe that a pair of AD5791 per channel do outperform discrete tech even when spending 10s, up to 100x as much for the pile of parts"…. As I understand it, the 'error' in chips is far greater than discrete….
You also didn't mention what is more important than 'chips'… implementation...
David
RoundRound
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Schiit Yggy vs Chord Hugo/TT impressions
I had the Yggy for about 10 days as part of a demo here in the UK and I’d like to share my impressions. My current system is a raspberry pi (running Jriver) feeding a Hugo optically, going into a Classe Cap-2100 (in power amp mode) and using a pair of B&W CM10s2 speakers and a REL S3 sub. Cables are a mix of Townshend (speaker, IC) and Nordost (Power, Coax).
Firstly I have to confess, I really like the Hugo, it was my first real DAC and like many of you I was blown away with its detail and musicality. I’ve spent nearly a year listening to it almost every day and I was very happy with it. When the TT came out I was a bit puzzled as Chord said in its heart it’s still the same Hugo but in a bigger box and better capacitors – I wasn’t sure it’s worth £2,800.
I’ve been following Schiit for a while and greatly enjoyed reading Jason’s ‘book’ so when the Yggy came out I asked the UK representative Mark (very friendly and knowledgeable) to get a demo unit. Yggy retails for £2,000 in the UK – which isn’t a laughing matter. So the Yggy arrived, I promptly hooked it up. First impressions (this is day 1) was that it sounded good our of the box, I didn’t find any harsh highs or any of the other issues people reported when using the Yggy ‘cold’, but of course my room is different to someone else’s.
In short I was blown away, the level of detail was simply astounding – to me it was a real level above the Hugo, probably even head and shoulders above. In a funny way the Yggy is doing to the Hugo what the Hugo did to everyone else. The dynamics are better (especially micro-dynamics) Timbre – for which the Hugo was my benchmark sound even better with the Yggy, and the Bass so defined I had to rebalance my Sub. The soundstage – for the first time in my life I understood what ‘holographic/3D sound stage meant – where with the Hugo it would be very wide and tall and the instruments where paced accurately around it – with the Yggy I actually heard them moving closer and away – really inspiring.
Another area where the Yggy shines is what Rob Watts called ‘musicality’ the flow of the music and that ‘vinyl like’ feel. Once again the Yggy does it even better... As time went by the Yggy did sound even more fluid and immersive, sadly I had to return it after 10 days as others are queuing for the demo... I listen mostly to electronic and Jazz music but also a bit of rock and classical. On day 9 with the Yggy a friend came over with his HugoTT – which I never had a chance to properly listen to and we made some comparisons against the Yggy. Overall I felt the TT sounded a bit better than the Hugo (perhaps 20%?) but doesn’t hold a candle to the Yggy - IMO.
When listening to ‘The game has changed’ from the Tron soundtrack (by Daftpunk) it has a very noticeable ‘electrical sound’ like I imagine a tesla coil would sound if you stood too close to it. On the TT it sounds good but the Yggy brings out a ton more detail and you actually realise this sound itself is composed of many tiny resonating, oscillating ‘bits’.
[VIDEO]https://youtu.be/DmKDVvIEhBY[/VIDEO]
Listening to Super Colpo Da 7 Miliardi - Nico Fidenco from the sound track of ‘Confessions of a dangerous mind’ – which is an amazing and fleeting Jazz piece the Yggy renders the acoustic bass much better than the TT, in fact to the point that I wondered if the sub was turned off. The timbre on the trumpets – which was already good to the TT had a whole new level of ‘dryness’ and detail with the Yggy.
[VIDEO]https://youtu.be/iuL3lwpxnDo[/VIDEO]
Lord Echo – Arabesque sounded fluid and warm with a greater instrument separation and than I’ve ever heard from the Hugo. One of the Yggy’s greatest strengths (and the Hugo’s, to a lesser extend) is its ability to sound forward when needed (electronic, rock, etc) and laid back when called for.
[VIDEO]https://youtu.be/x_vCiPCy3XM[/VIDEO]
Giving back the Yggy demo unit and going back to the my trusted Hugo it sounded dull, it’s still nice and musical but I feel a whole level of performance, detail and fun was gone. I’ve placed an order for the Yggy and am looking to sell Hugo. These are of course my own subjective impressions, YMMV
[Mod Edit: Fixed the formatting]
I had the Yggy for about 10 days as part of a demo here in the UK and I’d like to share my impressions. My current system is a raspberry pi (running Jriver) feeding a Hugo optically, going into a Classe Cap-2100 (in power amp mode) and using a pair of B&W CM10s2 speakers and a REL S3 sub. Cables are a mix of Townshend (speaker, IC) and Nordost (Power, Coax).
Firstly I have to confess, I really like the Hugo, it was my first real DAC and like many of you I was blown away with its detail and musicality. I’ve spent nearly a year listening to it almost every day and I was very happy with it. When the TT came out I was a bit puzzled as Chord said in its heart it’s still the same Hugo but in a bigger box and better capacitors – I wasn’t sure it’s worth £2,800.
I’ve been following Schiit for a while and greatly enjoyed reading Jason’s ‘book’ so when the Yggy came out I asked the UK representative Mark (very friendly and knowledgeable) to get a demo unit. Yggy retails for £2,000 in the UK – which isn’t a laughing matter. So the Yggy arrived, I promptly hooked it up. First impressions (this is day 1) was that it sounded good our of the box, I didn’t find any harsh highs or any of the other issues people reported when using the Yggy ‘cold’, but of course my room is different to someone else’s.
In short I was blown away, the level of detail was simply astounding – to me it was a real level above the Hugo, probably even head and shoulders above. In a funny way the Yggy is doing to the Hugo what the Hugo did to everyone else. The dynamics are better (especially micro-dynamics) Timbre – for which the Hugo was my benchmark sound even better with the Yggy, and the Bass so defined I had to rebalance my Sub. The soundstage – for the first time in my life I understood what ‘holographic/3D sound stage meant – where with the Hugo it would be very wide and tall and the instruments where paced accurately around it – with the Yggy I actually heard them moving closer and away – really inspiring.
Another area where the Yggy shines is what Rob Watts called ‘musicality’ the flow of the music and that ‘vinyl like’ feel. Once again the Yggy does it even better... As time went by the Yggy did sound even more fluid and immersive, sadly I had to return it after 10 days as others are queuing for the demo... I listen mostly to electronic and Jazz music but also a bit of rock and classical. On day 9 with the Yggy a friend came over with his HugoTT – which I never had a chance to properly listen to and we made some comparisons against the Yggy. Overall I felt the TT sounded a bit better than the Hugo (perhaps 20%?) but doesn’t hold a candle to the Yggy - IMO.
When listening to ‘The game has changed’ from the Tron soundtrack (by Daftpunk) it has a very noticeable ‘electrical sound’ like I imagine a tesla coil would sound if you stood too close to it. On the TT it sounds good but the Yggy brings out a ton more detail and you actually realise this sound itself is composed of many tiny resonating, oscillating ‘bits’.
[VIDEO]https://youtu.be/DmKDVvIEhBY[/VIDEO]
Listening to Super Colpo Da 7 Miliardi - Nico Fidenco from the sound track of ‘Confessions of a dangerous mind’ – which is an amazing and fleeting Jazz piece the Yggy renders the acoustic bass much better than the TT, in fact to the point that I wondered if the sub was turned off. The timbre on the trumpets – which was already good to the TT had a whole new level of ‘dryness’ and detail with the Yggy.
[VIDEO]https://youtu.be/iuL3lwpxnDo[/VIDEO]
Lord Echo – Arabesque sounded fluid and warm with a greater instrument separation and than I’ve ever heard from the Hugo. One of the Yggy’s greatest strengths (and the Hugo’s, to a lesser extend) is its ability to sound forward when needed (electronic, rock, etc) and laid back when called for.
[VIDEO]https://youtu.be/x_vCiPCy3XM[/VIDEO]
Giving back the Yggy demo unit and going back to the my trusted Hugo it sounded dull, it’s still nice and musical but I feel a whole level of performance, detail and fun was gone. I’ve placed an order for the Yggy and am looking to sell Hugo. These are of course my own subjective impressions, YMMV
[Mod Edit: Fixed the formatting]
Appreciated your comments and your effort/time to do the comparison.
blasjw
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MSB is dope. Expensive but definitely dope. I don't do dope but I'm dope not a dope, doper than anyone tryin' to cope... Oh wait that's Eazy-E sorry.
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The bunch of pile in parts (resistors) is still on the die of the chip. The resistors buried in the substrate on the die of the chip can be trimmed with super precise laser beams to much better precision than a bunch of discrete parts. Also, we don't know what additional sorcery Analog Devices put on that chip. There could be circuits doing automatic internal calibration to always keep the output precise. The error in putting a bunch of the bestest high precision discrete resistors is at least 30 (being super conservative here) times greater than the AD5791-EP. Schiit is not using a part I can find at Frys or RatShack.
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