So reading the Uptone Regen original thread - I see why an external USB bridge can sound superior to a DAC's built in one.
 
John Swenson the genius Engineer behind the Regen explains on the thread:
http://www.computeraudiophile.com/f27-uptone-audio-sponsored/uptone-audio-regen-22803/index10.html
 
John explains 'Packet Noise'

This is a term I coined to refer to the power and ground noise a receiver generates when reading a packet of data. For example in​

USB

(and Ethernet) data comes in packets with a fair amount of space between packets. The receiver chip doesn't do much of anything in-between packets, this doesn't generate much noise on supply planes. But when a packet comes in the receiver goes into high gear processing the data that just came in, this processing generates a lot of highly variable current draw from the board which generates a fair amount of noise on the supply planes.​

​

​

This noise comes in bursts, which is the packet frequency. For example​

USB

high speed has packets at 8KHz, which is in the human hearing range. This noise can modulate processes in the​

DAC

(such as the main clock oscillator and the​

DAC

conversion to analog) producing subtle distortions which are in the audio range.​

​

​

John S.​

 

Click to expand...

Alex (SuperDad) from Uptone explains:

 

I am sure John will chime in with a proper technical explanation, but allow me to point out a few things--​

​

a) The purpose of the REGEN is create a​

USB

signal with better signal integrity and impedance than what is at the end of your​

USB

cable from your computer or streamer;​

​

b) Galvanic isolator chips (some of which are much better than others--all of which generate their own​

jitter

and should be reclocked afterwards), as used on many​

USB

>I2S boards and in the last couple of years in decent DACs, all come AFTER both the​

USB

PHY and the​

USB

processor;​

​

c) The "packet noise", "logic induced modulation", whatever you want to call it--is still happening on the​

USB

input board, and despite the presence of isolator chips, the extra voltage spikes, activity, and noise generated will still have an effect on the sound. That's because those galvanic isolators are good at galvanic isolation, but the signal itself gets embedded with tiny stuff (John will have to expound and correct here). Also, I seem to recall that the isolators are good at some frequencies and not others.​

​

​

In addition, to use the JLSounds board as an example (I have one myself, uninstalled as of yet), they have the audio clocks on the board, and as you say, some sharing of PS planes may occur. (And if one does the better thing and feeds a better​

DAC

master clock back into the board, it appears that he ran out of isolator channels and the clock would not go through the isolators. He also chose to use the RF transmitter/receiver type of isolator. Not only do those Silicon Labs isolators have about 3.5 times the​

jitter

of the ones John likes, but there may be some RFI emitted.)​

​

​

As a separate example, John when to great lengths in the design of the​

USB

input of the recently releases BottleHead​

DAC

to insure isolation, immunity, etc. He used all the right tricks with regards to PHY, processor, multiple isolated regulators, clocking, and the best galvanic isolators and reclock flops--all placed and ordered for optimal results.​

​

And guess what?​

USB

cables, computer stuff, and the REGEN all still make a difference!​

​

​

So sorry, when Chord just announced that its newest two DACs--the about-to-ship 2Qute and Hugo TT--have galvanic isolators in their​

USB

input path that make choice of​

USB

cables and power supplies irrelevant, forgive me if I don't act surprised if users discover otherwise.​

Click to expand...

John goes into greater detail:

Originally Posted by bibo01
Interesting explanation.
In the presence of a galvanically isolated USB interface like JLSound where clocks are on the isolated side and there are two separate ps (one for xmos chip and one for oscillators), can that "fair amount of noise on the supply planes" still be relevant? If yes, how?
The two separate PS share ground.
If we measure noise on both PS, what kind of measured value should we aim for in order to leave DAC unaffected?




​

Very good question. The isolation helps but is not nearly the panacea many people think. Lets travel through the system and look at both the power and signal and what happens to them as we go through the system.​

​

​

So lets start with a​

USB

receiver with bursts of high frequency noise on both the power and ground planes. This PG (power/ground) noise will modulate the data being sent to the isolators. It will slightly increase​

jitter

and the amplitude of the pulses will vary with the noise.​

​

​

This noisy power also goes into the driver side of the isolator. The signal going across the barrier (light, EM waves, magnetic field etc) gets modulated by this PG noise as well. The PG noise also changes the threshold of the input receivers, adding​

jitter

to the signal.​

​

​

On the other side of the barrier we have a couple things happening, the varying signal level, caused by the PG noise in the driver, also causes the receiver current to change, even with no signal applied. Thus the receiver causes PG noise on the "clean side" directly related to the PG noise on the "dirty side" It is definitely attenuated, but not by nearly as much as most people expect. Then we also have traditional logic noise caused by the fact the output is a normal logic signal, every time the output changes it creates noise on the PG planes on the clean side. The​

jitter

on the signal created by the PG noise on the dirty side is still there PLUs​

jitter

introduced by the isolation scheme. This​

jitter

changes the spectrum of the logic noise on the PG planes on the clean side.​

​

​

So then we feed the signal through a reclocking flop, which is supposed to get rid of all that​

jitter

on the input. Well it helps, but no reclocking flops are completely effective. The PG noise at the flop still causes​

jitter

to show up on it's output, PG noise changes the threshold where the flop detects the "switch" of the clock, thus increasing​

jitter

on the output.​

​

​

The result of this chain is that PG noise on the "dirty side" can still make it through to the "clean" side. It IS attenuated, but not completely gone.​

​

​

Cascading such stages can theoretically help, but in order for that to work the reclocking clock has to get fed back through the isolators which significantly degrades the clock so it turns out cascading doesn't help much. (a two stage cascade does make things better, but not by a huge amount)​

​

​

On the issue of PS supply noise THAT is a whole story in itself which needs to get tackled separately.​

​

​

John S.​

 

Click to expand...

 
So to summarize the USB receiver chip and processor have periodic high level bursts of activity (when the data packets arrive) that create high frequency noise - that noise bleeds through the isolators in several ways - one way is through the system's PS (like those DC servo laser controllers on CD players) that then modulates with the USB reclocking and even the DAC's clocks (if the USB board shares a PS inside the DAC) and other components (like the isolators thresholds).  The second problem is noise riding on the data packet itself generated by the PC's processor and USB MB USB controller (this is why you should have as few other USB devices connected to your Music Server, ie, external speakers, phone chargers, ext HDs, etc..).  The more the USB controller has to handle with these devices the more noise that is generated.
 
Then there is the issue of impedance matching of the USB data output and inputs.  Most USB input receivers do not have exact impedance's - so the signal on the cable will create back reflected waves.  These modulate with the incoming USB data stream and create issues for the USB bridge or DAC's on board USB receiver and processor - creating jitter.   So this may explain why some USB cables sound better then others in your system - they have slight impedance variations that with trail and error you may find one that more closely aligns with your devices USB input receiver.  The Regen is made to exact impedance specifications and attaches directly to the back the Bridge or DAC's USB input.  But this still does not fix the fact your Bridges or DAC's USB input may not be the exact impedance.  So the Regen was designed to absorb those back reflected waves.
 
The PS and G modulated noise inside DAC does double harm - in addition to the noise modulating with the USB board clocks and processor, it also feeding this noise into the DAC's chips and clocks ground and PS.  So thereby polluting now only the USB board but the DAC board as well.  Having an external USB Bridge (hopefully plugged into a completely separate PS isolation and filtering device like the Audio Art PB 4x4 Pro to isolate the noise for the rest of the home's power) - can help keep the DAC's PS clean.
 
What a neat device!
 
Hey Uptone how about a Regen for the S/PDIF coax input!  I'll be first in line

@rb2013,
 
That sir, was a killer post!  Thanks for putting that together for us.

prot said:

OTOH, http://www.head-fi.org/t/613387/msb-analog-dac-review-p3/250_50#post_12011526

Click to expand...

 
I just read through that entire thread.
Unfortunately it fell into a "defend the great product" thread by product adopters and apparently the company owner?
I am of the opinion, and I clearly state now that I am an engineer that "needs" to see some measureable reason for a certain result, that the guys making the measurements are correct.
None of the defenders could/would show any proof of how the improvement comes about, other than anecdotal results.
Even though they heavily questioned the test methods, they had no test results of their own apparently.
And I clearly don't understand the push-back against some coordinated blind testing.
I have not been around the audiophile crowd enough to understand the aversion (fear?) to this testing I suppose.

stuartmc said:

  @rb2013,
 
That sir, was a killer post!  Thanks for putting that together for us.

Click to expand...

Hey thanks!  I'm looking forward to reading more on CA about the Regen - John and Alex are really open about the technical stuff.

core32 said:

I just read through that entire thread.
Unfortunately it fell into a "defend the great product" thread by product adopters and apparently the company owner?
I am of the opinion, and I clearly state now that I am an engineer that "needs" to see some measureable reason for a certain result, that the guys making the measurements are correct.
None of the defenders could/would show any proof of how the improvement comes about, other than anecdotal results.
Even though they heavily questioned the test methods, they had no test results of their own apparently.
And I clearly don't understand the push-back against some coordinated blind testing.
I have not been around the audiophile crowd enough to understand the aversion (fear?) to this testing I suppose.

Click to expand...

Agree with you but unfortunately most so called audiophiles seem to have a strange anti-measurements mindset. Asking for measurements/proof on an audio forum is usually online suicide.
Anyway, as far as I seen there's a lot of hype around those regen devices and almost no substance.

More great stuff from the Uptone engineer John Swenson:
 
On how the USB bridge or USB board inside a DAC processes the incoming data stream from the PC:
 

Originally Posted by Daudio
I don't think that the Regen knows anything about packets, buffers, or even bits. It simply works on the 'analog' signal of the USB data line, optimizing it to pass on to other 'analog' circuitry in the front end of the USB reciever chip in the DAC, where digitial logic only occurs after the (now easier) Analog to Digital conversion of the signal.

I suppose it would be better to look at the Regen as an 'active cable', more then as any kind of digital device (just to work with your analogies, not to be purely accurate).




​

The REGEN, is at it's core a​

USB

hub. All hubs actually contain two​

USB

interfaces and a full blown​

USB

protocol engine. It is not just working at the analog level, it is actually receiving the data from the​

DAC

, putting it in a buffer and retransmitting (and the other way for the packets from the​

DAC

).​

​

​

The upshot is that the regen DOES generate packet noise but I have tried to optimize the PDN so the packet noise is very low, so the quality of the signal going to the​

DAC

is very high.​

​

​

As I mentioned before it was actually the regen where I first spotted the packet noise in the first place. Drastically reducing that by optimizing the PDN is what made the regen into such a good sounding source.​

​

​

There seems to be some mis understanding of all this, so I will try and say it succinctly.​

​

​

In a​

DAC

the packets coming in on the​

USB

bus are not continuous, there is significant time in-between each packet. Thus the processing of these packets produces noise on the power supply and ground plane that come in bursts, I am calling this "packet noise". Part of this noise is determined by the​

USB

protocol engine and is going to be constant for a particular​

DAC

.​

​

​

The "PHY" part of the receiver (which may be in a separate chip) is in charge of converting the analog​

USB

bus signals into digital words sent to the protocol engine is what is susceptible to the condition of​

USB

signal, its "Signal Integrity" (SI). The lower the SI he harder the PHY has to work, which produces greater packet noise. If the SI is very good the packets noise from the PHY is less than that from the protocol engine. As the SI degrades the packet noise from the PHY can dominate.​

​

​

Remember this is what happens INSIDE the​

DAC

. At this point there aren't any DACs that have been specifically optimizing this, it's way too new as a specific concept to design to. BUT the best DACs DO optimize this to some degree, whether by trial and listening or as a by-product of optimizing for something else. Remember this is something I have just been looking into my self in the last couple months, it is not something that is universally agreed to as something that needs to be optimized in DACs, it is going to take a LOT of research to find out what is going on here and how this affects sound quality. Please don't start getting upset at your favorite​

DAC

vendor because they are not doing this.​

​

​

The REGEN is designed to provide a very high SI to the​

DAC

's​

USB

PHY, thus decreasing the PHY part of the packet noise. The packet noise from the protocol engine is always still going to be there. THAT is determined by the​

DAC

design.​

​

​

Since the regen has its own PHYs and protocol engine it is ALSO susceptible to the SI on ITS input. I have spent a lot of time working on the design and board layout to minimize this packet noise but it is still there. The impedance of the "Power Delivery Network" (PDN) over a broad range of frequencies determines the amplitude of the packet noise produced by the hub chip. So everything else being equal (a specific source computer, cable etc) decreasing the PDN impedance decreases packet noise the regen generates, which improves the SI of the signal sent to the​

DAC

, which decreases the packet noise generated by the​

DAC

, which improves the sound quality.​

​

​

It is important to note that the packet noise in the​

DAC

is generated inside the​

DAC

by its own components processing the​

USB

data, NOT coming from the outside world over the​

USB

cable or power supply of the​

DAC

. The impedance (over a broad frequency range) of the PS is PART of the PDN impedance so it does have an affect on the packet noise. This is critical to understand, the impedance of the power supply is far more important than the noise level of the power supply, the packet noise is generated by the​

DAC

itself, NOT coming in off the external supply, since the supply is an important part of the PDN impedance, the supply impedance is more important than it's actual noise level.​

​

​

This is contrary to what everybody seems to be doing, all I ever hear is people looking at the "ripple value" or noise level and using that to choose between power supplies. This is the wrong thing to look at. Unfortunately NOBODY gives you an impedance VS frequency chart for their PS, so there really is no good way to choose a supply based on spec sheets. Better quality supplies also tend to have lower impedances, so there is a fairly good correlation between noise level and low impedance, but it is not guaranteed. I can come with several ways to build very low noise supplies which have a fairly high output impedance, which will sound bad driving a regen or a​

DAC

.​

​

​

That is about as succinct as I can make it, I hope it is understandable.​

​

​

John S.​

 

Click to expand...

So here John makes a very important point on power supplies (he calls PDN 'power delivery network') - that it's not the 'ripple value' that is so frequently looked at - but the impedance of the power supply! 
 

"It is important to note that the packet noise in the​

DAC

is generated inside the​

DAC

by its own components processing the​

USB

data, NOT coming from the outside world over the​

USB

cable or power supply of the​

DAC

. The impedance (over a broad frequency range) of the PS is PART of the PDN impedance so it does have an affect on the packet noise. This is critical to understand, the impedance of the power supply is far more important than the noise level of the power supply, the packet noise is generated by the ​

DAC

itself, NOT coming in off the external supply, since the supply is an important part of the PDN impedance, the supply impedance is more important than it's actual noise level."​

 
The noise generated is internal - from the both the USB processor PHY and USB protocol engine.  This is the first time I have heard this before.  But makes complete sense.
 
He could not eliminate this 'packet noise' completely but by very careful design he could reduce it dramatically.  So the DAC does not have to deal with it so much - creating it's own internal noise - that feedbacks through it's own PS system to affect say the internal clocks.
 
Genius!
 
This all makes the case for a external USB bridge even stronger  - one with it's own power filter.  I run Audio Breeze on a separate line from the DAC with it's own separate dedicated Art Audio PB 4X4 Pro (must be the Pro version) filter - which has both a Common mode and Differential Mode filter.  This helps prevent the USB bridge's noise from feeding back through the power system.  They are not to expensive ($85 on Ebay), I think this is better then a more expensive unit that all equipment shares.  I have a separate dedicated PB4X4 Pro for the DAC and another for the PC.  On the Hydra Z the LPS (linear power supply) is also isolated by a separate dedicated PB4X4 Pro (I have 7 now total).
 

All PRO SERIES models have an additional internal discrete module called APF™ (Advanced Power Filtering) which filters out digital and dimmer hash as well as any high frequency noise that is above the audio range. Some off-the-shelf add-on modules saturate and lose their filtering effectiveness as the load increases, but by using a high power discrete design we were able to create a filter that stays effective over the full operating range.
By using both Common Mode and Differential Mode topologies in series for the filter design we are able to block virtually all of the unwanted noise that is between the AC line and ground, and also the two sides of the AC line. This has the additional benefit of reducing ground loop problems in your system. High frequency noise currents in particular are highly attenuated in both directions so that any line noise that could be generated by one of your components is not allowed to get back into your main A.C. wiring so if you use a number of PRO SERIES Power Conditioners in your setup, you can distribute and isolate the noisy components from the sensitive components in your system. Additionally, any signals above 10kHz are filtered from the line with over 40dB of attenuation above 100kHz and beyond.
Every PRO SERIES power conditioner is designed with a power capacity of 1800 Watts, surge/spike protection, APF with EMI & RFI filtering, front-mounted unswitched power outlet and an adjustable rear-mounted gooseneck light source for bright illumination behind the rack. The spacing and alignment of the rear outlets to accommodate various size power plugs and AC adapters.
 

Click to expand...

 
Now the case for AES and S/PDIF from the USB bridge to the DAC, once the USB is clean up and the SI is the best it can be:
 
Posted by another member:

 S/PDIF

or​

AES3

is a lot slower data rate than​

USB

, so the incidence of packet noise is not so bad​

There's the issue of timing with​

S/PDIF

and quite a few devices, for example Wyrd4Sound Remedy, Mutec 1.2, RME PCI cards and others provide this correct timing. Every bit helps, the Regen cleans up the​

USB

end of any​

USB

-​

S/PDIF

converter. Now if I could only experience that, the first step towards that goal is for Superdad to provide a quote from the website the other day that's slightly overdue, thanks.​

Click to expand...

 Oh BTW these guys know power supplies - their $925 JS-2:
http://uptoneaudio.com/products/js-2-linear-power-supply
 

 
 

  Dual-output, choke-filtered linear power supply with four user-selectable DC output voltages.  
Two independently adjustable, separately regulated outputs; Voltage choices are user set from the back panel: 5V, 7V, 9V, or 12V.  
Guaranteed current capability is 5 amps continuous from either output at any voltage setting.  
(Up to 6.8 amps split between outputs, depending upon DC voltage combination; Instantaneous capability of up to 10A).
User configurable for worldwide operation at 100/120/220/230/240 volts AC.
Dimensions: 9.0 inches wide x 9.1 inches deep x 3.3 inches tall (with feet).
Weight: 10.5 pounds; 14 pounds in its full double-box shipping cartons (shipping dimensions 14"x14"x9").
Warranty: 4-year parts and labor (excludes shipping costs after 90 days).
Made in U.S.A.   Shipping anywhere in the world via Express Mail Intl. (EMS) or FedEx (custom-quoted deep discount rates by country; often less than than postal, plus faster and more secure).
Includes:
1 custom 5-foot DC cable. This special cable is a shielded, star-quad with 4 conductors of tinned, stranded 18AWG; paired at the connector that makes it about a heavy 15AWG.  Gold/copper/brass Oyaide (5.5mm x 2.5mm) DC barrel plugs from Japan at both ends. Upon request we can terminate one end with a 2.1mm version of the Oyaide connector in case you need that size at the device end.

[A second one of these in-demand custom cables can be ordered by JS-2 purchasers for $60; Specify length and device-end termination.  A nice factory-made, 1-meter, 16AWG coaxial DC cable with DC 5.5mm x 2.5mm jacks at both ends is offered by us for just $10 and is fine for many applications.]
2-meter, 16AWG, shielded AC power cord (USA mains plug, but you can cut and attached an appropriate local plug; it is a good heavy and shielded cord, so adapting it is worthwhile.)
1 SMA coax cable for optional activation of JS-2's unique Kelvin-sense voltage feedback circuit (currently supported only by the UpTone MMK).
******************************
The choice to use a costly, custom, electrostatically shielded 100VA R-core transformer is highly beneficial to the JS-2 design.
Just powering the computer, the difference—between the R-core and a toroidal transformer in the bass was shocking. And in comparisons powering a DAC or other audio-signal-handling component, the sonic benefits ranged top-to-bottom, cymbals and piano to deep bass.  Plus R-core transformers, due to the gapless construction of the core, are mechanically silent. 
 
John Swenson on the benefits of a choke-filtered linear power supply:
The traditional cap only filter (transformer, diode bridge, big cap) produces raw DC with a sawtooth riding on top. That sawtooth produces lots of high frequency components that the regulator has to deal with. Traditional regulators do very well at low frequencies, but have lousy characteristics at high frequencies which means a fair amount of those high frequency components from the cap-only filter get through to the regulator. Fancy discrete regulators do well at blocking the high frequency components, but add cost and complexity to a PS. Our approach is to use a properly designed choke-based supply whose ripple is a perfect sine wave, no high frequency components, thus a traditional regulator works very well. The discrete regulator is not needed to deal with the high frequency components, since there aren't any.
All diode types except Schottkys emit a burst of ultrasonic noise as they turn off. This noise can go forward into the load circuit AND it can go back into the AC line, and it can also excite the transformer resonance. The "slow" diodes still have this ultrasonic noise. Schottkys are the only type which do not have this noise. Schottkys also usually have about half the voltage drop of other diode types and are usually faster. Which type to use depends a lot on what your supply looks like and what you are trying to optimize for. 
With a traditional low voltage design with a large cap right after a bridge you get large current spikes, these produce a large amount of high frequency noise which needs to be filtered by what comes after the cap. In this type of circuit the slow diodes can help cut down on the extent of the high frequencies generated by the sharp high current pulse. BUT they still generate the ultrasonic noise.

This is another reason why we like to use the choke-based design. With the choke there is no steep high current pulse, so no disadvantage to Schottky diodes. You get the advantage of no ultrasonic noise, lower voltage drop (so lower power consumption in the diode) and no big massive current pulses.

Click to expand...

 He could not eliminate this 'packet noise' completely but by very careful design he could reduce it dramatically.  So the DAC does not have to deal with it so much - creating it's own internal noise - that feedbacks through it's own PS system to affect say the internal clocks.

Click to expand...

 
Is there any proof to this statement? I ask because I have not seen one single bit of evidence other than the written word.
IF the reduction is "dramatic" it should be very easy to measure and observe.

core32 said:

   
Is there any proof to this statement? I ask because I have not seen one single bit of evidence other than the written word.
IF the reduction is "dramatic" it should be very easy to measure and observe.

Click to expand...

Well, after 30 yrs in high end audio - I don't put much faith in 'measurements' as often the engineers are 'measuring' the wrong thing.  For example, in the '70s the move to solid state hifi - all the rage as the test bench IM and THD measures were very good.  Better by a factor of 10 over the old tube amps - the declaration that tubes were a relic.  How did that turn out?
 
Stereophile and Audio magazine (I was a long time subscriber) had all the ads and were thick publications, every review replete with 'test bench' charts and graphs.  Get one of these on Ebay and read through it - it would make you laugh.  Then this little 6" by 6" almost no pictures - and absolutely no ads publication came out - called 'The Absolute Sound' by a fellow named Harry Pearson.  He threw out all the "But the Engineers say it must sound better it has lower THD (total harmonic distortion)" common thinking.  And spoke of the better sound of tube equipment - he of course was derided by the measurement people.  But high quality US manufactures like ARC (Audio Research Corp) and Conrad Johnson and well McIntosh - were selling lot's of very expensive tube gear.
 
So where are Pioneer, Sansui, Kenwood today?  How about Audio Research, Conrad Johnson, McIntosh?
 
Then came CDs - Wash, Rinse, Repeat...
 
So go ahead and pick your equipment based on 'measurements' like old HP (now deceased - will miss you 'bro) - I trust my ears.  Test equipment does not 'hear' music but my ears sure do.

That was not my question. And I do not pick my equipment based on measurements alone.
In fact I pick it based on probably 90% of peoples experiences. I just read very carefully and look for fluff before I decide who's experience I trust.
The issue I see is making statements like the one I quoted above.
A statement like that sounds as if there were measurements taken because you would not know there was a "dramatic" change without them.
Otherwise you just can't say it with any truth behind it.
If it just sounds so damn good but you don't know exactly why, just say that.

core32 said:

 
That was not my question. And I do not pick my equipment based on measurements alone.
In fact I pick it based on probably 90% of peoples experiences. I just read very carefully and look for fluff before I decide who's experience I trust.
The issue I see is making statements like the one I quoted above.
A statement like that sounds as if there were measurements taken because you would not know there was a "dramatic" change without them.
Otherwise you just can't say it with any truth behind it.
If it just sounds so damn good but you don't know exactly why, just say that.

Click to expand...

Oh you didn't ask how it sounds or what has been the feedback on the Uptone Regen - just asked about measurements.
 
I was quoting a noted very talented engineer - why don't you ask him - on another thread.

They have been asked on another thread for sure.
Oh, and there are a lot of "noted very talented engineers" in the world.

I went to order a second Regen for my other system - now both October's and November's 500 unit productions are sold out - taking pre orders for December.
 
I bet it sounds like s**t.  
 
If anyone has one of these crappy little pieces of 'snake oil' I'll gladly take it off your hands - at a premium. No measurements required.  

Good for you.
A lot of people bought VW diesels as well based on the written word.
Guess how that's working out for them now?

core32 said:

  Good for you.
A lot of people bought VW diesels as well based on the written word.
Guess how that's working out for them now?

Click to expand...

Oh so you run your own pollution and MPG analysis at the dealer before you buy.
 
Thanks for making my point - the 'measurements' on these GDI's were gamed by their engineers.  

rb2013 said:

I went to order a second Regen for my other system - now both October's and November's 500 unit productions are sold out - taking pre orders for December.

I bet it sounds like s**t. :basshead:  

If anyone has one of these crappy little pieces of 'snake oil' I'll gladly take it off your hands - at a premium. No measurements required. :wink_face:  

Click to expand...

I'm sorry pal my Regen sounds so crappy and well, "oily" that I couldn't possibly foist it upon another head-fier. I've decided to keep it in my system as a means of penance for my shameful materialism. As a bonus, I find that taping it in place at the end of a long USB cord makes for a most efficacious flagellum.