Based on what amounts to one user review? I find the whole hoopla to be a little out of proportion to the event. An event which we know only one side of.
I have nothing against the OP here but I sincerely believe you can have a bad experience in just about any shop. Anyone can have a bad day and make a foolish decision on the job, thats life. If there were a dozen or so people chiming in saying "Yes I was in there too and they gave me the bums rush" I would have serious issues with the place.
As it stands all it makes me want to do is go and see for myself next time I'm in the neighborhood.
Whereas, if the thread had not identified the actual venue we might have had some responses from other locations saying "Now that you mention it I had a similar experience in xyz."
I don't think that any one isolated incident calls for a boycott any more than one luke warm review would shy me off a particular headphone.
Based on what amounts to one user review? I find the whole hoopla to be a little out of proportion to the event. An event which we know only one side of.
I have nothing against the OP here but I sincerely believe you can have a bad experience in just about any shop. Anyone can have a bad day and make a foolish decision on the job, thats life. If there were a dozen or so people chiming in saying "Yes I was in there too and they gave me the bums rush" I would have serious issues with the place.
As it stands all it makes me want to do is go and see for myself next time I'm in the neighborhood.
Whereas, if the thread had not identified the actual venue we might have had some responses from other locations saying "Now that you mention it I had a similar experience in xyz."
I don't think that any one isolated incident calls for a boycott any more than one luke warm review would shy me off a particular headphone.
I still don't understand your objection to naming the store. You think OP should have been deliberately vague in order to encourage equally vague reports about other places? That's like not naming the product in a review. It misses the whole point.
Regardless, you want your dozen bad reviews? You have them right there on yelp. Yes, OP's experience plus their negative yelp reviews is more enough for me to pass on their services.
Most people cannot fathom why anyone would spend more than $100 on headphones or spend time on a headphone forum. We all have passions that others don't understand.
Posting on a forum about headphones isn't all that different from writing a blog post about headphones, really.
I still don't understand your objection to naming the store. You think OP should have been deliberately vague in order to encourage equally vague reports about other places? That's like not naming the product in a review. It misses the whole point.
Regardless, you want your dozen bad reviews? You have them right there on yelp. Yes, OP's experience plus their negative yelp reviews is more enough for me to pass on their services.
Yelp is noted for its whiners, mainly since someone's motivation to post on Yelp is much higher if they've had a less than satisfactory experience, to seek some kind of retribution, than if they've had a positive one.
Check out on Yelp one of the oldest and most well-regarded high end stores in the U.S, Lyric HifFi in NY -- it got one star by 6 out of 12 reviewers. Guess you better not go there either. I suggest that because of all this citizens worldwide should boycott both Stereo Exchange and Lyric HiFi.
Yet, somehow these stores do more business yearly than is transacted in many countries.
Most people cannot fathom why anyone would spend more than $100 on headphones or spend time on a headphone forum. We all have passions that others don't understand.
Posting on a forum about headphones isn't all that different from writing a blog post about headphones, really.
Now that is an interesting option. Has any member actually reviewed a shop on here in the same manner as they do headphones?
I'm not trying to derail your thread here or trivialize your experience in any way. I believe things may well have occurred just the way you describe. I also know a little about human perception and memory and believe equally that we are not getting the entire picture. I don't think we will now that the thread has evolved into a rudimentary boycott. How we word things makes a big difference in how they are perceived. I think here we have a case of "Guilty until proven innocent" and really, would anyone expect someone to willingly jump into a thread like that and make a defense?
Yelp is noted for its whiners, mainly since someone's motivation to post on Yelp is much higher if they've had a less than satisfactory experience, to seek some kind of retribution, than if they've had a positive one.
I use yelp all the time--really almost daily--and I review on yelp often. If anything, I've found considerable inflation in reviews. I think you're just making excuses.
No excuses at all, as I mentioned there have been legions of well-satisfied customers of these stores over 40 to 50 years, nearly all of whom have not posted on Yelp -- you are looking at a puny sample size on Yelp compared to the thousands and thousands of transactions that have occurred. A sense of proportion is lacking in many of the posts in this thread. It's as if a capital offense has been committed by this store against some poor helpless blogger and for that crime a worldwide boycott is warranted to, yes, drive these MFs out of business.
As someone else has pointed out, this "incident" has received far more attention than is warranted. Someone on AudioAsylum said the same thing. On AA, there is a section called Whiner's Woad, and it was mentioned that that is where this "offense" should have been posted and discussed. Suggest that the AA thread be reviewed again -- there are far more supporters for the company's point of view than here.
Because HeadFi isn't as populated with spiteful ******** who dismiss anyone who says something they don't agree with as a "troll." The place is so full of those kind of individuals that I deleted my account there after 14 years.
I think this is an important thread. I am likely younger than most of you, and try being young and going into an audio store. It's very intimidating, even with parents. It's an almost tense feeling, like if you don't buy something you're wasting their time.
I've tried two audio stores around me. One I tried the Audioengine D1 at when I was first getting into audio. At this store (won't name them, irrelevant) I was immediately helped by a nicer older gentleman who answered all of my questions even though he knew I would be buying a cheap product or nothing at all. Granted no one else was in the store at the time, but I would've been helped eventually. I ended up going with a different product, but had a positive experience with the store. I knew from my visit that they sold Grados, and I was almost going to by a pair of Grados as a gift a few weeks ago, and would've bought from this store had I not once again decided on a different product. This was a store that seems similar to the one being discussed. They had an event promoting the KEF blades a few weeks later that I attended and was once again welcomed. They clearly make most of their money selling speakers, but still gave me a superb customer service experience regardless of whether I was planning on buying a $30,000 KEF system or a $189 Audioengine D1.
The other store I tried when I was shopping for a headphone amplifier was worse. I emailed to see if they even had anything under $500, and was assured they did by the owner. When I got there, all of the salesmen dismissed me and insisted they didn't have any even under $1,000. I referenced the email and they got the owner, who was nice and showed me the options. But I felt like I was wasting their time, and felt guilty, much like the OP probably felt.
The point is, even when I could've gotten the Grados on Amazon or another site for the same price, I would've wanted to go to the first store just because of their great customer service. I agree that brick and mortar stores are necessary and unfortunately not abundant in this hobby, but they only serve their purpose if they provide a good experience that is personable. Otherwise I have no sympathy when Amazon puts them out of business.
Also, to comment on the OP's experience: I'm honestly shocked that given their probable knowledge of their yelp situation that they weren't more careful with how they handled "online" topics. Especially once he said he had a blog, they had the audacity to tell him he needs to leave? You'd think if they were intelligent they would've at least explained their logic or been nicer about it.
I think this is an important thread. I am likely younger than most of you, and try being young and going into an audio store. It's very intimidating, even with parents. It's an almost tense feeling, like if you don't buy something you're wasting their time.
I've tried two audio stores around me. One I tried the Audioengine D1 at when I was first getting into audio. At this store (won't name them, irrelevant) I was immediately helped by a nicer older gentleman who answered all of my questions even though he knew I would be buying a cheap product or nothing at all. Granted no one else was in the store at the time, but I would've been helped eventually. I ended up going with a different product, but had a positive experience with the store. I knew from my visit that they sold Grados, and I was almost going to by a pair of Grados as a gift a few weeks ago, and would've bought from this store had I not once again decided on a different product. This was a store that seems similar to the one being discussed. They had an event promoting the KEF blades a few weeks later that I attended and was once again welcomed. They clearly make most of their money selling speakers, but still gave me a superb customer service experience regardless of whether I was planning on buying a $30,000 KEF system or a $189 Audioengine D1.
The other store I tried when I was shopping for a headphone amplifier was worse. I emailed to see if they even had anything under $500, and was assured they did by the owner. When I got there, all of the salesmen dismissed me and insisted they didn't have any even under $1,000. I referenced the email and they got the owner, who was nice and showed me the options. But I felt like I was wasting their time, and felt guilty, much like the OP probably felt.
The point is, even when I could've gotten the Grados on Amazon or another site for the same price, I would've wanted to go to the first store just because of their great customer service. I agree that brick and mortar stores are necessary and unfortunately not abundant in this hobby, but they only serve their purpose if they provide a good experience that is personable. Otherwise I have no sympathy when Amazon puts them out of business.
Also, to comment on the OP's experience: I'm honestly shocked that given their probable knowledge of their yelp situation that they weren't more careful with how they handled "online" topics. Especially once he said he had a blog, they had the audacity to tell him he needs to leave? You'd think if they were intelligent they would've at least explained their logic or been nicer about it.
I did not work in Audio Retail but had close friends that did. Much like meets we are a very small percentage of the buying population who understands and pays attention to stuff that sound better and costs more than Bose.
When it comes down to it we maybe have similar backgrounds even if we argue about cables and vinyl. We are truly birds of a feather. The sales guys need to make friends first. There is an old saying, make a friend make a sale. Still these guys get to be in a room full of toys all day long and play. They need to turn off the friendship and turn on the sale closing at some point in the afternoon.
Because we are all enthusiasts you have people which will spend hours and days burning up time only to be a dreamer and not purchase at the end. Out of 100% of the sales staff only 20% make 80% of the money. Some stores are 100% commission and these guys have to think about their mortgage, their kids! ect.
So at times things become very real. At many stores there is a revolving door where folks are let go due to lack of performance. All this gets combined with the emotions that come with deals falling out of place and managers yelling and belittling staff. There is no wonder that sales staff can come off as unfriendly and unprofessional at times.
Few people who have a regular paying desk job understand the pressures that come with retail sales. It is not what you did yesterday but you are always measured up to what you do today.
These are the motivations where sales staff will come off as prying and aggressive, trying to qualify a walk-in off the street as a possible buyer. The people that are good end up being at a store for years and have folks who regularly come in and ask for them. New sales people are normally just thrown in to sink or swim. No matter how classy the place is or how nice and professional the staff is, there is always the survival of the fittest as an underlying current and pressure.
Younger folks get the least respect and these prior ideas understood by the sales staff can come from a history of seeing younger people not have money or understand what they are looking for. It seems the experienced sales staff has a profile that they have learned to see. The best never prejudge though.
The other factor that has not been addressed here is personality profiles. In daily communication and interaction there are four basic personality profiles. At times a structured analytical personality will find a direct acting personality as rude. There are just certain types of people that are just oil and water. We have all been to a party and become introduced to someone we didn't click with. There are a number of underlying psychological factors. The guy may remind you subconsciously of a teacher you did not like in school.
This goes on everyday in sales. Some folks just don't understand each other. Neither is wrong or right it is just the mix.
I agree with Claritas here. Naming the store gave me back a few hours on my NY trip to do something fun...Thanks, OP!
Again, my original decision to go there was based on Guttenburg's IF article (good press -- which is OK I guess). Glad I saw the OP's post (bad press -- which apparently is not), looked up the Yelp reviews, and read the Owner's responses to the 29 Recommended Reviews.
SO...I'm a data guy -- believing that you can often gain information from comparing data from different sources and trying to discern patterns that help you make more intelligent business decisions. Here's what I've found:
29 Yelp Recommended Reviews over a span of ~9 years with an average rating of 2.5 stars
4 total responses to those reviews; 3 on May 10, 2012 and 1 in Sep, 2012 -- 2 to 6 months after the reviewers post...honestly the type and overall lack of response says a lot to me!
Yelp is noted for its whiners, mainly since someone's motivation to post on Yelp is much higher if they've had a less than satisfactory experience, to seek some kind of retribution, than if they've had a positive one.
Check out on Yelp one of the oldest and most well-regarded high end stores in the U.S, Lyric HifFi in NY -- it got one star by 6 out of 12 reviewers. Guess you better not go there either. I suggest that because of all this citizens worldwide should boycott both Stereo Exchange and Lyric HiFi.
Yet, somehow these stores do more business yearly than is transacted in many countries.
Just my $.02 but there's a fair amount of hyperbole/sarcasm/etc in your response...am often guilty of this myself! I get that exaggerating to make a point thing but really we're all just giving our opinions about something.
Anyway, some information regarding how Yelp really works and the impact on ratings...
From Yelp's site (http://www.yelp.com/faq#recommended_reviews)
Does Yelp recommend more positive or negative reviews?
About 80% of the reviews we recommend are three stars or higher, but that’s mostly just because our users write more positive reviews in the first place. Indeed, researchers at Harvard and Boston University debunked the myth that Yelp skews negative by showing that Yelp recommended far more positive than negative reviews.
Of course, a number of positive reviews never make the cut either – that’s perfectly normal too, and assuming there’s no funny business going on (like someone writing reviews from multiple accounts), it’s just the normal operation of the recommendation software trying to highlight the most helpful and reliable reviews regardless of star rating.
If 80% of all of the reviews are 3 stars or higher, what does that say about Stereo Exchanges performance to obtain their 2.5 Stars ranking?
I use yelp all the time--really almost daily--and I review on yelp often. If anything, I've found considerable inflation in reviews. I think you're just making excuses.
Interesting sidenote, the 'Not Recommended' Yelp reviews for Stereo Exchange are skewed in the other direction (averaging 3.7 Stars).
Why would a review not be recommended?
There are a number of reasons why a review might not be recommended. For example, the review might have been posted by a less established user, or it may seem like an unhelpful rant or rave. Some of these reviews are fakes (like the ones we see originating from the same computer) and some suggest a bias (like the ones written by a friend of the business owner),but many are real reviews from real customers who we just don’t know much about and therefore can’t recommend.
FWIW, I feel that Yelp rarely steers me wrong...often confirming friends opinions about shops, restaurants, etc. When I eventually patronize a recommended place (to me 3.5 stars or greater), I'm usually glad I did.
I agree with Claritas here. Naming the store gave me back a few hours on my NY trip to do something fun...Thanks, OP!
Again, my original decision to go there was based on Guttenburg's IF article (good press -- which is OK I guess). Glad I saw the OP's post (bad press -- which apparently is not), looked up the Yelp reviews, and read the Owner's responses to the 29 Recommended Reviews.
SO...I'm a data guy -- believing that you can often gain information from comparing data from different sources and trying to discern patterns that help you make more intelligent business decisions. Here's what I've found:
29 Yelp Recommended Reviews over a span of ~9 years with an average rating of 2.5 stars
4 total responses to those reviews; 3 on May 10, 2012 and 1 in Sep, 2012 -- 2 to 6 months after the reviewers post...honestly the type and overall lack of response says a lot to me!
Just my $.02 but there's a fair amount of hyperbole/sarcasm/etc in your response...am often guilty of this myself! I get that exaggerating to make a point thing but really we're all just giving our opinions about something.
Anyway, some information regarding how Yelp really works and the impact on ratings...
From Yelp's site (http://www.yelp.com/faq#recommended_reviews)
Does Yelp recommend more positive or negative reviews?
About 80% of the reviews we recommend are three stars or higher, but that’s mostly just because our users write more positive reviews in the first place. Indeed, researchers at Harvard and Boston University debunked the myth that Yelp skews negative by showing that Yelp recommended far more positive than negative reviews.
Of course, a number of positive reviews never make the cut either – that’s perfectly normal too, and assuming there’s no funny business going on (like someone writing reviews from multiple accounts), it’s just the normal operation of the recommendation software trying to highlight the most helpful and reliable reviews regardless of star rating.
If 80% of all of the reviews are 3 stars or higher, what does that say about Stereo Exchanges performance to obtain their 2.5 Stars ranking?
Survey says...Yep!
Interesting sidenote, the 'Not Recommended' Yelp reviews for Stereo Exchange are skewed in the other direction (averaging 3.7 Stars).
Why would a review not be recommended?
There are a number of reasons why a review might not be recommended. For example, the review might have been posted by a less established user, or it may seem like an unhelpful rant or rave. Some of these reviews are fakes (like the ones we see originating from the same computer) and some suggest a bias (like the ones written by a friend of the business owner),but many are real reviews from real customers who we just don’t know much about and therefore can’t recommend.
FWIW, I feel that Yelp rarely steers me wrong...often confirming friends opinions about shops, restaurants, etc. When I eventually patronize a recommended place (to me 3.5 stars or greater), I'm usually glad I did.
If you were truly a "data guy" you would look at 29 reviews over 9 years as a very poor sample rate (if your music was sampled at a similar rate it would be incomprehensible) and most likely stepped in to form an opinion for yourself.
Even a "bad experience" is an experience nonetheless.
If you were truly a "data guy" you would look at 29 reviews over 9 years as a very poor sample rate (if your music was sampled at a similar rate it would be incomprehensible) and most likely stepped in to form an opinion for yourself.
Even a "bad experience" is an experience nonetheless.
Chuckle, I'm not sure where your anger/angst is coming from but am sorry if my disagreeing with your viewpoint is partly responsible for it.
A little context. I didn't declare the data set a statistically valid sample. Additionally, there are a total of 77 Yelp Reviews for Stereo Exchange that you can read...29 Recommended Reviews and 48 Not Recommended Reviews (these do not factor into their rating).
Nonetheless, all of these reviews, whether a valid sample or not, are data that can be compared with other data -- both statistical and anecdotal. From my perspective, I see people making significant business decisions with limited/incomplete data all the time. Just because the data you have is incomplete and possibly even inaccurate, doesn't mean that you should ignore it or automatically postpone your decision until you 'have all the data'. The decision's perceived risk and opportunity cost usually dictate whether the decision maker chooses to gather more data OR move ahead with the data they have.
To your point, I have formed an opinion for myself. My view? The risk to me is wasting an afternoon out of a 3 day weekend in NYC at a store that may treat me poorly as it has many others. Not the end of the world for sure but should I do that just to 'get the experience' as you suggest? When I believe there's a decent probability it could be a bad one? Not a good choice for me personally...though I'm sure it would be for you. I'm anxiously looking forward to your store review!
How did I come to this conclusion? I've looked at an OP's post (genuinely dismayed by a terrible customer experience), a total of 77 data points on Yelp (a forum I've had good luck with), plus a total of 4 owner responses (talk about a small sample size!) which provide no hope to me that he cares whatsoever about customer service (untimely, insulting, etc.) and have come to the conclusion that it's not worth my time...especially with all the other cool stuff to do in NYC.
FWIW -- I'm having a little trouble with your rendition of the numbers as well but you're certainly entitled to your interpretation of the data (or is it datum in this case?)
Originally Posted by Hutnicks
"Based on what amounts to one user review?"
"I don't think that any one isolated incident calls for a boycott..."
"If there were a dozen or so people chiming in saying "Yes I was in there too and they gave me the bums rush" I would have serious issues with the place."
Some of us don't see it as an isolated incident...you do get that, right?
Originally Posted by Hutnicks
"As it stands all it makes me want to do is go and see for myself next time I'm in the neighborhood."
I highly encourage this. They could use a bump in their ratings! :-0
What can reasonably be inferred from a smallish sample size on Yelp is that these 50 people or so all had an experience that compelled them to write a review for better or for worse. When the reviews tilt fairly strongly in one way or the other, it's pretty indicative of the experience you are likely to have and in my experience Yelp reviews overwhelmingly capture the general gist of a place. Their restaurant reviews for example fairly accurately list the top-10 places in my city for example, including getting the top 3-ish restaurants right (IMO). Other sites like Trip Advisor have roughly the same list, usually from a sample size of 50-200 people.
If Marco's comments had been out of tune with the Yelp reviews, we might have some reason to be suspicious. As it is, they pretty much reinforce an attitude that appears to have been prevalent in this store for a long time. From one of the recent Yelp reviews:
This place feels like a relic from an older era, with staff that don't understand customers or customer service.
Unfortunately in my experience this is often the case with small retailers (of any persuasion) that deal with the public for a long time. They get tired of the constant interactions, burn out, and it infects the entire place. Sure, that's not to say you can't have a great experience there - but it's often on their terms rather than your own. So long as you are willing to bend to their preferences, you'll be treated well. God help you if you mention the Internet or something they don't stock though.
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