earbones said:

  I guess my refusal thus far to buy a high-def DAP is that despite their software's ability to play hi-def music, none of the hardware beyond the DAC (and even then not always) is capable of besting your standard iPod Touch or iPhone, at least when tested and measured. I guess I'd rather gamble on hi-def music coming to the 6 and new gen of Apple players than spend $800-$2400 on equal (or in some cases inferior) hardware with better software. At least right now. Who knows... If true hi-def music doesn't come to Apple with the new phone announcement, then I might revisit the DAP scenario. But can you imagine if Apple introduces both hi-def music and a Spotify-competitor service? There will be a lot of people walking around with $199 contract phones that (once paired with a decent amp) completely crush the $2400 AK240...

Click to expand...

 
I disagree, because high res files alone don't make better sound. Likewise, neither do regular measurements, such as RMAA, tell you how a device will do playing back complex music under load. Be careful that people are taking measurements just to put down a device. There are quite a few people out there saying "Everything has a flat frequency response, it's all the same/it's a rip-off/whatever." That ain't science, that's abusing facts to be deliberately misleading.
 
With any kind of test, you need to do it or verify it yourself. Just because someone does a test doesn't mean the results are the absolute truth. It's worth reading the story from Schiit Audio. The last chapter goes into how measurements can easily end up screwed up. A relative of mine has been the editor of various scientific journals for decades and you'd be shocked how many problems there are with research results, ranging from errors and wrong conclusions to outright fraud.
 
My advice to everyone is: Don't rely on anyone's impressions OR anyone's tests. Go out and try (or test) each device for yourself, with your own music and your own headphones. THAT is the only thing that is going to decide if it is "worth it". Impressions and tests are only data points that may help someone decide if a product is worth checking out.
 
When I make videos, the reason is not to rant on about how wonderful a product is, it is to give people the chance to see it up close when they may not otherwise be easily able to. It's also a challenge for me to think about why not just I like it or don't like it, but the possible reasons it may be good or not for other people. I think the discussion here from people about the merits or demerits of the different DAPs has been good for the same reasons.
 

y2jdmbfan said:

  I'll start off by saying I don't consider myself to have tuned ears of a true audiophile, as I haven't been able to demo alot of high quality headphone or IEM's, but I am trying to learn more as I go. 
 
I have had the HiFiMAN HM-901, Sony NW-ZX1, and FiiO X5 paired with my Shure SE846 IEM's. I currently still have the NW-ZX1 and X5. I couldn't live with the size and UI on the HM-901, even though the sound was great with the IEM card. I've got the NW-ZX1 and X5 now and have the same HiRes tracks and ALAC CD rips and MP3 rips on both units. I must say, I do think the X5 does sound better after the first few comparison listens. I like clarity on my highs, and X5 seems to deliver that better than the ZX1. There also seems to be a bit more punch on the low end. The ZX1 sounds very good, but the clarity on the high end doesn't seem to be as crisp as on the X5. However, I will say the UI on the ZX1 blows away the X5, although I could probably live with the X5's UI. The screen on the ZX1 is very nice compared to the previous HiRes players I have owned. I need to pick one of them, as I can't really justify having them both, I also picked up a 5th gen iPod Touch, but as I already have a 7th gen nano and iPad Mini, it is probably going back, as I haven't even opened it yet. 
 
If I didn't have the 2 units side by side, I could definitely live with either of them and be happy. Now the question becomes, is the UI alone worth the $400 premium over the X5...The hard part for me is most of my music is high quality MP3 files ripped by me with EAC, now I rip new CD's I buy into ALAC, but 95% are MP3. I also like the fact that the X5 has a dedicated line output and microusb connection. 
 
Y2J

Click to expand...

 
I thought there was a bit more clarity with some music with the ZX-1 (all lossless), but definitely not all. I think you nailed it otherwise with the rest of your comments. The Sony has the advantage, with a custom dock, that they can have a dedicated analogue line out as well, which you don't get with micro-USB or a Lightning connection.
 
I'm looking forward to reading more comparisons from people and comparing them with my own.   

Quote:

nazrin313 said:

My lg g2 already can play hi def playback and sounds really good. But for me, the reason i wanted a dap was:

- standalone player: my listening isnt stopped by calls, sms, messages
- no rf interference with my amps

Click to expand...

These are perfectly valid reasons... The same reasons I use an iPod Touch as my dedicated player rather than my iPhone 5s. 
 
 
Quote:

currawong said:

   
I disagree, because high res files alone don't make better sound. Likewise, neither do regular measurements, such as RMAA, tell you how a device will do playing back complex music under load. Be careful that people are taking measurements just to put down a device. There are quite a few people out there saying "Everything has a flat frequency response, it's all the same/it's a rip-off/whatever." That ain't science, that's abusing facts to be deliberately misleading.
 
With any kind of test, you need to do it or verify it yourself. Just because someone does a test doesn't mean the results are the absolute truth. It's worth reading the story from Schiit Audio. The last chapter goes into how measurements can easily end up screwed up. A relative of mine has been the editor of various scientific journals for decades and you'd be shocked how many problems there are with research results, ranging from errors and wrong conclusions to outright fraud.
 
My advice to everyone is: Don't rely on anyone's impressions OR anyone's tests. Go out and try (or test) each device for yourself, with your own music and your own headphones. THAT is the only thing that is going to decide if it is "worth it". Impressions and tests are only data points that may help someone decide if a product is worth checking out.
 
When I make videos, the reason is not to rant on about how wonderful a product is, it is to give people the chance to see it up close when they may not otherwise be easily able to. It's also a challenge for me to think about why not just I like it or don't like it, but the possible reasons it may be good or not for other people. I think the discussion here from people about the merits or demerits of the different DAPs has been good for the same reasons.

Click to expand...

I agree in principle with this statement, but not as it pertains to my point about Apple and their various devices... They are perhaps the most tested devices on the planet, as far as audio quality goes, and the various tests have all revealed more or less identical findings- it doesn't get much better, hardware-wise. I'd go so far as to say that it is more or less established that Apple represents a bar as far as far as portable audio quality goes. 
 
While I haven't used the AK240, I do own an AK10, and I can confirm what the tests say about Apple- the AK10's sound is slightly different than my Apple iPod 5th gen and iPhone 5 and 5s... But not better.
 
While it's tempting to believe that a dedicated audiophile company like iRiver's A&K will inherently make a better device than a tech-giant with varied interests like Apple, let's not forget that historically sound quality has been a talking-point at Apple. Think about this... The last grammy for best album went to Daft Punk's Random Access Memories... And it was Apple that commissioned a special mix just for iTunes, which is critically-lauded as the best-sounding digital version of the album, even better than the DSD version.

earbones said:

  I agree in principle with this statement, but not as it pertains to my point about Apple and their various devices... They are perhaps the most tested devices on the planet, as far as audio quality goes, and the various tests have all revealed more or less identical findings- it doesn't get much better, hardware-wise. I'd go so far as to say that it is more or less established that Apple represents a bar as far as far as portable audio quality goes. 
 
While I haven't used the AK240, I do own an AK10, and I can confirm what the tests say about Apple- the AK10's sound is slightly different than my Apple iPod 5th gen and iPhone 5 and 5s... But not better.
 
While it's tempting to believe that a dedicated audiophile company like iRiver's A&K will inherently make a better device than a tech-giant with varied interests like Apple, let's not forget that historically sound quality has been a talking-point at Apple. Think about this... The last grammy for best album went to Daft Punk's Random Access Memories... And it was Apple that commissioned a special mix just for iTunes, which is critically-lauded as the best-sounding digital version of the album, even better than the DSD version.

Click to expand...

 
You should really give Sony Walkman a try, especially those with an on-board digital amp module.  They are very well crafted with a fantastic UI just like the iPod/iPhone but with nicer sound quality.  

j-project said:

   
Would love to see the comparison between the 3 you are picking up.  I had the AK120 and F887, but decided on keeping the AK120 (paired with SE846).  Very interested to see how the X5 compares to the AK120.  I'm sort of debating between keeping the AK120, or swapping it for the X5 or DX90.  Most likely won't switch to the X5 as I'm not a bit fan of the scroll wheel/UI, and I haven't been able to find a place locally where I can test the DX90 unfortunately.

Click to expand...

Another thing to consider in your choice is the Dacs of X5 vs DX90. The latter uses sabre and the former PCM1792. I have always found the sabre dacs very slightly clinical whereas I loved the PCM1792 in the Hifiman 801.

purk said:

   
You should really give Sony Walkman a try, especially those with an on-board digital amp module.  They are very well crafted with a fantastic UI just like the iPod/iPhone but with nicer sound quality.  

Click to expand...

Purk, are you referring to the ZX1, or to Sonys in general?  I'm interested in a an 880-series Walkman, but I'm concerned that it won't deliver power in a way that lets it compete with the iBassos and Fiios.  I really want to avoid using an amp because I travel a lot for work, so I'm looking for a single-box solution.  Sorry that we seem to have hijacked this thread.

irvin59 said:

 

j-project said:

   
Would love to see the comparison between the 3 you are picking up.  I had the AK120 and F887, but decided on keeping the AK120 (paired with SE846).  Very interested to see how the X5 compares to the AK120.  I'm sort of debating between keeping the AK120, or swapping it for the X5 or DX90.  Most likely won't switch to the X5 as I'm not a bit fan of the scroll wheel/UI, and I haven't been able to find a place locally where I can test the DX90 unfortunately.

Click to expand...

Another thing to consider in your choice is the Dacs of X5 vs DX90. The latter uses sabre and the former PCM1792. I have always found the sabre dacs very slightly clinical whereas I loved the PCM1792 in the Hifiman 801.

Click to expand...

 
One interesting thing about this comparison has been how irrelevant my usual assumptions about DA chip sound has been. The HM-901 uses a Sabre yet it sure as heck doesn't sound like it does (to me at least). 
 
I finally got around to trying the X5 with DSD and it sounds good. Not sure I'd bother with it over PCM given the massive file size, but then, there some stuff from High Definition Tape Transfers which is fantastic -- but also available in PCM.
 
Another interesting thing was a post I read which has a translation of something the Sony's designer said about the ZX-1 that suggests it has an active ground or 3-channel configuration.

currawong said:

   
One interesting thing about this comparison has been how irrelevant my usual assumptions about DA chip sound has been. The HM-901 uses a Sabre yet it sure as heck doesn't sound like it does (to me at least). 
 
I finally got around to trying the X5 with DSD and it sounds good. Not sure I'd bother with it over PCM given the massive file size, but then, there some stuff from High Definition Tape Transfers which is fantastic -- but also available in PCM.
 
Another interesting thing was a post I read which has a translation of something the Sony's designer said about the ZX-1 that suggests it has an active ground or 3-channel configuration.

Click to expand...

That is interesting. Dacs always used to be such a major point of discussion. Maybe designers have become better at tailoring components around the dac to get the signature they want. As for DSD I'd only try it as an experiment on one or two files. They are massive, and even the smaller 24 196 files are just too large. Not necesary on a portable dap.

elladan said:

Purk, are you referring to the ZX1, or to Sonys in general?  I'm interested in a an 880-series Walkman, but I'm concerned that it won't deliver power in a way that lets it compete with the iBassos and Fiios.  I really want to avoid using an amp because I travel a lot for work, so I'm looking for a single-box solution.  Sorry that we seem to have hijacked this thread.

Click to expand...

Depends on what you're driving. I've yet to use a phone or player that doesn't push the vast majority of IEM's to their full capabilities. With full-size cans, things get tougher. Fairly standard impendence for an IEM is usually in the neighborhood of 16 Ohms. That figure jumps to 32 Ohms with cans. Which is definitely drivable, but on the other hand I've never heard a full-size can, regardless of impedence, that doesn't sound better on an amp. The highest impedence IEM I am aware of (and it's unusual) sits at around 130 Ohms, which is still drivable from most devices (though obviously not optimal). Cans on the other hand regularly go 300-600 Ohms, which means you'll need an amp... Most standalone devices won't push that with enough volume, let alone deliver the sort of power headroom the can needs to really sing properly.

I travel a ton too, and my solution has been an iPod touch with a Fiio E11. It's small, but powers most cans well (obviously not the best for 300-600 Ohm models). I made strips of industrial adhesive Velcro (not actually fabric Velcro but the plastic stuff) to connect the amp to the iPod, and it makes for a pretty solid and small combo that's easily taken out and quickly put away... Obviously not as easily pocketable as a phone, which is why I keep that separate.

goodvibes said:

  Coupling caps are not the devil. They can actually be a the better way at times and when in a feedback loop compensated if need be. It can be the smarter way depending on parameters as it can actually be more stable without as much complexity or need for additional protection circuitry. Every good audio circuit gets voiced. Cap coupled or DC servo. Voltage passes through a lot of sound affecting parts on it's way to you. Caps are just one of them. 

Click to expand...

I know there are other active components in the signal path. To these ears, and convincingly, no caps are the best caps as far as my setup goes. This conclusion has been drawn after I have tried TONS of caps from 4.7 uf to 3,000,000 uf. There are some winner caps which sound awesome, but the capless setup wins hands down regardless how it is modded (lod pins lifted off board or the imod way). I wish there is another amp designed similarly to the UHA (implementing a servo circuit to compensate for dc without caps) so I can do a comparison, but there is none as far as I know, or the vendors don't have the guts to tell me to feed the amp with the 2,000 mV's.
 
My guess is all caps degrade audio to certain degree, due to the resistance added to the signal path.  It is from these experiments and comparisons that I have come to understand and appreciate Transparency. It makes a huge difference to my experience listening to music (99% or more classical). I always consider the classical music, especially symphony and orchestral works, to be the most demanding for transparency and clarity due to its broad frequency spectrum. For those who review audio gears, I would say no review is complete without sampling classical music.
 
With transparency, you can throw away all those fancy audiophile terms. A transparent source and a reference phone call it a day for me.

dminor said:

 
I know there are other active components in the signal path. To these ears, and convincingly, no caps are the best caps as far as my setup goes. This conclusion has been drawn after I have tried TONS of caps from 4.7 uf to 3,000,000 uf. There are some winner caps which sound awesome, but the capless setup wins hands down regardless how it is modded (lod pins lifted off board or the imod way). I wish there is another amp designed similarly to the UHA (implementing a servo circuit to compensate for dc without caps) so I can do a comparison, but there is none as far as I know, or the vendors don't have the guts to tell me to feed the amp with the 2,000 mV's.
 
My guess is all caps degrade audio to certain degree, due to the resistance added to the signal path.  It is from these experiments and comparisons that I have come to understand and appreciate Transparency. It makes a huge difference to my experience listening to music (99% or more classical). I always consider the classical music, especially symphony and orchestral works, to be the most demanding for transparency and clarity due to its broad frequency spectrum. For those who review audio gears, I would say no review is complete without sampling classical music.
 
With transparency, you can throw away all those fancy audiophile terms. A transparent source and a reference phone call it a day for me.

Click to expand...

I'm the same way.  No caps are the best.  We all have preference, that's why I'm heavily favor the sound of my GS-X MKII due to extreme transparency and its beautiful tone.

currawong said:

   
 
My first comparison I did tonight with the DITA Audio The Answer and my UERMs between the HM-901, AK240 and Sony. In all cases I was using the single-ended output.  I just wanted to get an idea of the character of each. Music was: Amber Rubarth (binaural), Buena Vista Social Club (24/96) and Babatunde Olatunji - Sare Tete WA from Open Your Ears.
 

1. The Answer and UERMs single ended. I need to make a couple of adaptors (or a whole new cable for the Roxannes) to get everything running balanced. 

Click to expand...

OT.
 
How is the DITA in your esteemed opinion?
 
OT.
 
Are you going to throw the DX90 into the mix?
 
 
cheers

Just got the X5 and AK120. Really enjoying the sq of the 120-black background, airy and detailed. The X5 lasted about 2 minutes. Build quality looks good and sq seemed fine for the couple of minutes I spent with it, but my heart sank with the UI. I suppose I could learn it, but why should I when my phone sounds so good. The 120 might have some quirks with its UI but nothing I can't live with, considering the sq. At least it has a touch screen and seems quite responsive. It also feels like a premium product which is important to me in this price range. My ZX1 is on it's way...to be continued

earbones said:

Depends on what you're driving. I've yet to use a phone or player that doesn't push the vast majority of IEM's to their full capabilities.

Click to expand...

Thanks, Earbones.  My IEMs are Dunu DN-1000s, which have an impedance of 10 ohms, and an efficiency of 98dB.  Both of those numbers are fairly low among IEMs, and I'm finding that the Moto X doesn't drive them all that well.  I get too little bass (which is where most of the energy should be going), and although the presentation is quite airy, notes are thinner and a bit less detailed than when they're driven by my Sansa Fuze, and dynamics seem poorer.  When the phone is amped with a Headsix, it's quite good.  But then, so is the Sansa, though the two sources sound really, really different.
 
If I'm understanding correctly, low-impedance 'phones are generally easier to easier to drive in that they require less voltage than high-impedance 'phones, but by the same token, they require more current.  (I'm working off the explanation here:  ​).  According to the 1/8 rule, which I read about someplace else, you want an output impedance no greater than 1/8 of the headphone impedance; in this case, that would be 1.125.  I suspect that my phone's HO impedance is somewhere north of there, and the battery is not delivering enough current.  The Fiios and iBassos have output impedances of <1 -- as does the Headsix -- while the AK series, if memory serves, are something like 4, which would be fine for driving 32 ohm 'phones.
 
If the Sony 88x has an impedance in the range of 1, I think it would probably drive the Dunus perfectly well.  If not, I'd be better off going with a Fiio or iBasso or Hisound or whatever.  I can use the Fuze/Headsix stack, which is tiny by amp stack standards, but two devices<one when it comes to travel, or (3<2, when you add my phone, which is too curved to stack and use with the Headsix).  

Elladan AK240 = 1 imp

saraguie said:

  Elladan AK240 = 1 imp

Click to expand...

LOL.  Was really only referring to the DAPs within reasonable price distance of the DX50.  I'm just going to have to keep hoping to find an AK240 lying in the street. 
 
FWIW, I read after posting that that the AK120's OI was 3.  The AK100's is 22!