iDSD micro Black Label. Tour details (page 147). Release info (page 153).
Jun 16, 2014 at 8:39 PM Post #826 of 4,252
But I want to use Spotify. To your defence I haven't got Android USB Audio working with Spotify on any Android Phone (tried S4, G2, Z1 Compact) or with any DAC. But hoping to find support for this in the future.

 


Hi,

You can use Sony Xperia Z2 with all other music apps through usb otg cable, except for picking up call.
I am personally using the Z2 with the IDSD Nano listening to music from TTPod and walkman.

This feature currently seems to be be limited to the Z2 and MAYBE the new flagships from Samsung, HTC and LG. :)
 
Jun 16, 2014 at 11:43 PM Post #827 of 4,252
Hi ifi,
 
Thank you for sharing info of the micro iDSD! I own a nano iDSD and I am very satisfied with it. My question is, according to the PCB photo, the micro iDSD utilizes two BB DSD1793 DACs (in dual mono mode), the same as the nano iDSD, why don't you use a higher end model, such as PCM1792/1794/1795? At least those models have better specs, and are more widely used. 
 
Jun 16, 2014 at 11:52 PM Post #828 of 4,252
  Hi ifi,
 
Thank you for sharing info of the micro iDSD! I own a nano iDSD and I am very satisfied with it. My question is, according to the PCB photo, the micro iDSD utilizes two BB DSD1793 DACs (in dual mono mode), the same as the nano iDSD, why don't you use a higher end model, such as PCM1792/1794/1795? At least those models have better specs, and are more widely used. 

not sure what the exact answer is, but i think iFi mentioned in a post somewhere that they tried a whole bunch of different chips and the one they settled on was the one they thought sounded the best. so specs are one thing, but sound is another...
 
Jun 17, 2014 at 4:40 AM Post #829 of 4,252
 
But I want to use Spotify. To your defence I haven't got Android USB Audio working with Spotify on any Android Phone (tried S4, G2, Z1 Compact) or with any DAC. But hoping to find support for this in the future.

 


Hi,

You can use Sony Xperia Z2 with all other music apps through usb otg cable, except for picking up call.
I am personally using the Z2 with the IDSD Nano listening to music from TTPod and walkman.

This feature currently seems to be be limited to the Z2 and MAYBE the new flagships from Samsung, HTC and LG.
smily_headphones1.gif

Hi thanks for the info. Just tried iDSD Nano with Galaxy S5 (4.4.2), USB Audio out and Spotify. And it works, awesome!
beerchug.gif

So hopefully iDSD Micro will support this as well. Looks like it is going to be a killer product.
 
Jun 17, 2014 at 4:42 AM Post #830 of 4,252
Hi ifi,

Thank you for sharing info of the micro iDSD! I own a nano iDSD and I am very satisfied with it. My question is, according to the PCB photo, the micro iDSD utilizes two BB DSD1793 DACs (in dual mono mode), the same as the nano iDSD, why don't you use a higher end model, such as PCM1792/1794/1795? At least those models have better specs, and are more widely used. 


There's a lot more to the sound of a DAC than just which DAC chip is used.

The chosen chip plays PCM natively and also plays DSD natively.

What do you mean by better specs? 32 bit perhaps? This is only relevant if you want to implement digital volume control. The iDSD uses an analogue stepped attenuator so a 32 bit DAC is not needed. 24 bits is plenty given that the performance of the analogue circuitry rarely exceeds 20 bits anyway.

What has 'widely used' got to do with it?
 
Jun 17, 2014 at 4:46 AM Post #831 of 4,252
  This was a popular Crowd-Design feature. So we hope you like it.
 
Super Duper features 1.8
 
The 3.5mm analogue input

Background
On occasion, one may wish to directly use the headphone amp section of the micro iDSD.
 
Maybe demo to a friend, or just grabbing another portable music player, no issue, they all have a 3.5mm output.
 
Explanation
Smart device 3.5mm > 3.5mm input auto bypasses the digital circuitry.
 
There are also RCA > 3.5mm cables so even a high-end source can be used.
 
How this benefits the listener
Unrivalled flexibility and simplicity, can lend to friends for them to try just using their 3.5mm out or when certain occasions call for it.

i hope that "3.5mm" label will be changed for we americans...what the heck is a mm anyway? 
 
Jun 17, 2014 at 4:47 AM Post #832 of 4,252
There's a lot more to the sound of a DAC than just which DAC chip is used.

The chosen chip plays PCM natively and also plays DSD natively.

What do you mean by better specs? 32 bit perhaps? This is only relevant if you want to implement digital volume control. The iDSD uses an analogue stepped attenuator so a 32 bit DAC is not needed. 24 bits is plenty given that the performance of the analogue circuitry rarely exceeds 20 bits anyway.

What has 'widely used' got to do with it?

 
As for the "better specs", I mean those chips have better SNR, dynamic range, THD+N, etc. 
 
If some chips are widely used by high-end devices, I think they are proven to have decent sound. I might be wrong.
 
Jun 17, 2014 at 4:55 AM Post #833 of 4,252
There's a lot more to the sound of a DAC than just which DAC chip is used.

The chosen chip plays PCM natively and also plays DSD natively.

What do you mean by better specs? 32 bit perhaps? This is only relevant if you want to implement digital volume control. The iDSD uses an analogue stepped attenuator so a 32 bit DAC is not needed. 24 bits is plenty given that the performance of the analogue circuitry rarely exceeds 20 bits anyway.

What has 'widely used' got to do with it?

 
What do you mean by natively? All the DACs I mentioned are advanced segment DAC with DSD/PCM interface. There is no difference between DSD1793 (PCM1793) and PCM1792 in their functional block diagrams, except the latter have better dynamic range (113dB vs 132dB), lower THD+N (0.001% vs 0.0004%) and so on.
 
Jun 17, 2014 at 8:58 AM Post #834 of 4,252
wmy5 said:
.
What do you mean by natively? All the DACs I mentioned are advanced segment DAC with DSD/PCM interface. There is no difference between DSD1793 (PCM1793) and PCM1792 in their functional block diagrams, except the latter have better dynamic range (113dB vs 132dB), lower THD+N (0.001% vs 0.0004%) and so on.


By 'natively' I mean bit perfect without upsampling or conversion.

You got your distortion figures back to front there. The DSD1793 is lowest at .0004%.

Thorsten explains it better than I ever could:
http://www.head-fi.org/t/711217/idsd-micro-crowd-design-super-duper-1-8-the-3-5mm-input-page-54/60#post_10404689

:cool:
 
Jun 17, 2014 at 10:21 AM Post #835 of 4,252
By 'natively' I mean bit perfect without upsampling or conversion.

You got your distortion figures back to front there. The DSD1793 is lowest at .0004%.

Thorsten explains it better than I ever could:
http://www.head-fi.org/t/711217/idsd-micro-crowd-design-super-duper-1-8-the-3-5mm-input-page-54/60#post_10404689

cool.gif

 
My mistake, sorry.
 
But I still don't believe DSD can handle both formats natively. The datasheet shows there is still a up-sampling module involved.
 
http://www.ti.com/lit/ds/symlink/dsd1793.pdf
 
Jun 17, 2014 at 11:32 AM Post #837 of 4,252
By 'natively' I mean bit perfect without upsampling or conversion.


You got your distortion figures back to front there. The DSD1793 is lowest at .0004%.


Thorsten explains it better than I ever could:
http://www.head-fi.org/t/711217/idsd-micro-crowd-design-super-duper-1-8-the-3-5mm-input-page-54/60#post_10404689

:cool:


My mistake, sorry.

But I still don't believe DSD can handle both formats natively. The datasheet shows there is still a up-sampling module involved.

http://www.ti.com/lit/ds/symlink/dsd1793.pdf


The datasheet shows that the chip contains an upsampling digital filter module.

The datasheet also shows that there is an interface for external upsampling and filtering.

Guess which one iFi uses :wink:

On THD+N, the datasheet says 0.001% but the TI website says 0.0004%. Seems like the TI media cannot be relied upon here. Of course, 0.001% is still a very good figure.

Without wishing to patronise, I suggest searching out and reading all the iFi postings in this thread as there is a lot more information given about the choices of chips and of the digital filtering or lack thereof.

Michael Lavorgna of AudioStream did a great interview with Thorsten which contains a lot more info about iFi's technology choices:
http://www.audiostream.com/content/qa-thorsten-loesch-amrifi

:cool:
 
Jun 17, 2014 at 12:59 PM Post #838 of 4,252
The recent discussion about chipsets and what constitutes what prompted us to bring in part 4 of the Software Design Notes. (also the AudioStream interview is quite heavy going as Thorsten does like the details).
 
Software Design Notes (4)
 
DSD – No ordinary DSD
 
There is DSD playback and DSD by iFi which we believe is different.
 
Normal DSD:
iFi DSD
 

 

 
 
We are really pleased with our DSD implementation - it really is quite one of the most original DSD implementations out there. At the core, no data conversion and manipulation is done INSIDE this chip, so the DSD data is preserved Bit-Perfectly. An analogue filter is applied to the DSD data before it is sent to the output stage.
 
For us, "doing digital" means keeping the signal path original as much as possible; ideally from the ADC being DSD kept through to DAC being DSD (the same of course goes for PCm which we will cover later).
 
But in the case of the nano iDSD and micro iDSD, we have this:

Therefore, when playing back an originally-recorded DSD file through this Burr-Brown chipset on the iDSD, the listener has ensured that the WHOLE ADC > DAC path has remained native” in its DSD format. Like this:
 

The DSD chip we use is under full software control in order to gain access to many “undocumented features” (yes, they all have them).  What are those “undocumented features”, we will announce them (a few should be a world’s first) closer to when we officially launch the micro iDSD.
 
Compared to the lion’s share of DSD-capable chips out there, most of them perform data conversion and manipulation of the DSD data and hence are no longer Bit-Perfect. This maybe the designer's choice, which is very much their prerogative but for us, we just about make it our mission to avoid such conversion processes.
 
Why? - conversion from one format to another is lossy. Hence to us, this is best avoided as much as possible.
 
What is the giveaway?  If they do digital volume control on the DSD stream, this is very likely to convert the DSD data into NON-DSD data (does not necessary mean that they are converting into PCM, but converting into something non-DSD at the very least).
 
Even Pro Audio Studios use DAWs that convert
Pyramix do not even pretend to use DSD, in their DAW any processing means the DSD signal is converted to DXD (24Bit/352.8KHz) and processed as this, then converted back to DSD. 
 

 
And Sonoma converts to DSD wide (aka PCM narrow), then applies a 24Bit scaling factor, ending up with 32PCM which is then converted back to DSD (remodulated from PCM).
 

 
It means that any processing of DSD in either Sonoma or Pyramix converts DSD to a form of PCM. Only "Tape Splice" (this refers to physically cutting the old magnetic tape and splicing two different tapes together) style edits can be done while retaining DSD.
 
If these VERY expensive DAW (Digital Audio Workstation) music recording/production packages cannot fade/volume control DSD without turning it to PCM, this begs the question of how come mainstream and far less costly commodity DAC's chipsets can?
 
This comes full circle back to why we selected the Burr-Brown chipset AND central to this why we use an analogue volume control (which yes, also has its issues but to us, these are far less sonically-damaging).
 
iFi audio Stay updated on iFi audio at their sponsor profile on Head-Fi.
 
https://twitter.com/ifiaudio https://www.instagram.com/ifiaudio/ https://ifi-audio.com/ https://www.youtube.com/@iFiaudiochannel comms@ifi-audio.com
Jun 17, 2014 at 1:47 PM Post #839 of 4,252
  The recent discussion about chipsets and what constitutes what prompted us to bring in part 4 of the Software Design Notes. (also the AudioStream interview is quite heavy going as Thorsten does like the details).
 
Software Design Notes (4)
 
DSD – No ordinary DSD
 
 
But in the case of the nano iDSD and micro iDSD, we have this:

Therefore, when playing back an originally-recorded DSD file through this Burr-Brown chipset on the iDSD, the listener has ensured that the WHOLE ADC > DAC path has remained native” in its DSD format. Like this:
 

The DSD chip we use is under full software control in order to gain access to many “undocumented features” (yes, they all have them).  What are those “undocumented features”, we will announce them (a few should be a world’s first) closer to when we officially launch the micro iDSD.
 

Mr. iFi audio,
 
Can you please help me understand how the timing is handled in block two of the first image and in the DAC conversion section within the second image?  Is a single clock used?  Multiple clocks for DSD and PCM?  What about multiples of 44.1 kHz and 48 kHz?
 
My apologies if this has all been answered already in this thread.  Thank you.
 

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