money4me247 said:

   
 
do note I think the 'sennheiser veil' is a bit exaggerated.

Click to expand...

 
I'm surprised to hear you say that given that you have as much experience with planars as you do. 
 
I know for myself, when a veil is present on a dynamic headphone it stands out like a sore thumb to me, mainly because of my affinity for planar drivers. The same thing happened to me with speakers. Once I got a taste of Magnepans and amazing planar transducer, it ruined me for almost all other box speakers. The same hasn't happened to the same degree with headphones, but I think if I had heard something like the Senn HD700 a couple years ago before I heard the Audezes and HifiMan offerings, I wouldn't feel the veil was so apparent. 
 
But obviously we all value different qualities in headphones...transparency just happens to be something I'm very senstive to and tend to become fixated on it when evaluating a headphone. I wouldn't go so far as to say I exaggerate it (I know you weren't talking to me specifically), but it's definitely something I cannot get past once I identify it. 
 
That was a big reason why I was so smitted with the HE-400 when I first heard them...not long removed from the HD700, it was like a big "YES!!!" in terms of the difference with regard to transparency. While I'm down a bit on the 400i, I really think the 400 is a massive steal at or under three bills. It's a damn good headphone. 

john57 said:

  This is efficiency at 93dbSPL per mill-watt according to the HifiMan web site.  
http://www.head-fi.org/t/168037/db-per-milliwhat-efficiency-vs-sensitivity-vs-how-loud-do-they-really-go/15#post_6431953
http://www.head-fi.org/t/463983/what-determines-how-sensitive-a-headphone-is/30#post_6304937
 
On the new HE400S there is two ratings.
 
SENSITIVITY: 98dB/V
EFFICIENCY: 93dB/mW
 
Noticed that both headphones have the same efficiency but the 400S has lower impedance at 22 ohms vs the 35 ohms of the 400i
This means that the 400S can be a bit louder than the 400i on the same SS amp.

Click to expand...

Ok but compared 400i with HD600 / 650 there is most difference in volume sensitivity ?

focker said:

   
I'm surprised to hear you say that given that you have as much experience with planars as you do. 
 
I know for myself, when a veil is present on a dynamic headphone it stands out like a sore thumb to me, mainly because of my affinity for planar drivers. The same thing happened to me with speakers. Once I got a taste of Magnepans and amazing planar transducer, it ruined me for almost all other box speakers. The same hasn't happened to the same degree with headphones, but I think if I had heard something like the Senn HD700 a couple years ago before I heard the Audezes and HifiMan offerings, I wouldn't feel the veil was so apparent. 
 
But obviously we all value different qualities in headphones...transparency just happens to be something I'm very senstive to and tend to become fixated on it when evaluating a headphone. I wouldn't go so far as to say I exaggerate it (I know you weren't talking to me specifically), but it's definitely something I cannot get past once I identify it. 
 
That was a big reason why I was so smitted with the HE-400 when I first heard them...not long removed from the HD700, it was like a big "YES!!!" in terms of the difference with regard to transparency. While I'm down a bit on the 400i, I really think the 400 is a massive steal at or under three bills. It's a damn good headphone. 

Click to expand...

i owns the he 400 and i was very glad......when i was upgrading my gear the he 400 ascended also...BUT the most important transformation i have made is this mod: put 7 patches of sorbothane around the cup... the result : my he 400 are more interesting for me than my basic stax now....read the most important thread about headphone i have read on hifi :
 
http://www.head-fi.org/t/744839/damping-mechanical-resonance-distortion-of-stax-phones-with-sorbothane-lambdas-srxiii-pro-sr003-sr007-and-finally-the-sigma/120
 
read my post there ... 

focker said:

   
I'm surprised to hear you say that given that you have as much experience with planars as you do. 
 
I know for myself, when a veil is present on a dynamic headphone it stands out like a sore thumb to me, mainly because of my affinity for planar drivers. The same thing happened to me with speakers. Once I got a taste of Magnepans and amazing planar transducer, it ruined me for almost all other box speakers. The same hasn't happened to the same degree with headphones, but I think if I had heard something like the Senn HD700 a couple years ago before I heard the Audezes and HifiMan offerings, I wouldn't feel the veil was so apparent. 
 
But obviously we all value different qualities in headphones...transparency just happens to be something I'm very senstive to and tend to become fixated on it when evaluating a headphone. I wouldn't go so far as to say I exaggerate it (I know you weren't talking to me specifically), but it's definitely something I cannot get past once I identify it. 
 
That was a big reason why I was so smitted with the HE-400 when I first heard them...not long removed from the HD700, it was like a big "YES!!!" in terms of the difference with regard to transparency. While I'm down a bit on the 400i, I really think the 400 is a massive steal at or under three bills. It's a damn good headphone. 

Click to expand...

I do strongly prefer planars over dynamics. However, I personally find that biggest strength of planars compared to dynamics is the faster perceived "speed" (better note spacing & separation). This does contribute to a much 'clearer & more accurate sound' to my ears. I always thought that the Sennheiser veil to be referring to the treble presentation & energy, which I did not find to be 'lacking' on the HD600/HD650. But yes, there are many dynamic and planar headphones that have more treble energy. AKG headphones spring to mind for dynamics. However, I do think some planars are less treble energy than the HD600/HD650, so I think the characterization of Sennheiser veil may be a bit of an overgeneralization. The Audeze headphones actually do have a bit of bloat/bleed to their notes which contributes to a nice smooth organic presentation and a bit less treble energy compared to some of the other headphones I've tried imo.
 
of course, ymmv & hearing different perspectives is what makes this hobby so enjoyable!

paulguru said:

  Ok but compared 400i with HD600 / 650 there is most difference in volume sensitivity ?

Click to expand...

help ?

paulguru said:

  Ok but compared 400i with HD600 / 650 there is most difference in volume sensitivity ?

Click to expand...

 
I am also interested in the topic. I can´t give you  the definite answer as I do not have personal experience with all these headphones. Nevertheless, with the intention to shed some light on the subject, I´d like to add some data which might be useful. Hopefully, it will not add further confusion or derail this thread.
 
DISCLAIMER: All data used in this post are based on following sites: 
http://en-de.sennheiser.com/ (official Sennheiser´s site)
hifiman.com (official Hifiman site)
http://www.digizoid.com/headphones-power.html 
 
HD 600 and HD 650 impedance is for both 300 Ohm, HD 650 should be more efficient headphone than HD 600 because  its sound pressure level (SPL) per milliWatt is 103 dB in comparison to  97.0 dB (SPL/mW)- the parameter for HD 600. HE-400i impedance is much lower - at 35 Ohm but on the other side its sensitivity is only at 93.0 dB/mW.   However, in regard to overall efficiency, also the headphone sensitivity, given in dB of SPL/mW , is not of less importance.
What does it mean ? Which one is the most overall efficient headphone ? 
 
1) Well, it´s for sure that all three headphones are not the easiest to drive and you should better use them with a proper amplification. 
2) The general rule is: headphones with higher impedance ( think of HD 600/650) need more voltage and headphones with lower impedance need more current.
 It  means that Sennheisers (HD 600/650) will need more voltage and less current than HE-400i
 
See below for a comparison:
 
HE-400i (headphone impedance: 35 Ohm, headphone sensitivity: 93.0 dB SPL/mW)
 
             LISTENING LOUDNESS                    VOLTAGE NEEDED      CURRENT NEEDED     POWER NEEDED
 
HD 650 (impedance 300 Ohm, sensitivity: 103 dB SPL/mW
 
                     LISTENING LOUDNESS                                 VOLTAGE NEEDED                    CURRENT NEEDED          POWER NEEDED
 
 
 
HD 600 (impedance: 300 Ohm, sensitivity: 97.0 dB SPL/mW)
 
                        LISTENING LOUDNESS                                    VOLTAGE NEEDED               CURRENT NEEDED       POWER NEEDED
 
 
Based on these numbers, theoretically the easiest to drive headphone out of these, should be Sennheiser HD 650 - it needs the lowest voltage, the lowest amount of current and the lowest power output (voltage x current)  to sound desirably loud and (at the same time) sufficiently " well "  ( without apparent distortion). However the definite answer should give someone who owns / used to own/ or has had personal experience with both headphones...
 
 
Between HD 600 and HE-400i you can notice the latter demanding more power and more current but not demanding as much voltage as HD 600 does. So which one is the more efficient ? 
Well, the HE-400i should be a bit easier to drive than HD 600, because it needs much less voltage than HD 600, despite being more current/power hungry. I don´t have HD 600 but I used to own Beyerdynamic DT 990 (250 Ohm, 96.0 SPL/mW) - with pretty similar "efficiency" attributes  to HD 600 and indeed look at the numbers:
 
DT 990 (impedance: 250 Ohm, sensitivity: 96.0 SPL/mW)
 
                 LISTENING LOUDNESS                                         VOLTAGE NEEDED              CURRENT NEEDED          POWER NEEDED
 
From my personal experience Hifiman HE-400i was easier to drive than DT 990 on portable device (iBasso DX90) as well as on home desktop device ( laptop + Audioengine D1 as a DAC/headphone amp). With regards to very similar efficiency parameters vs HD 600 I would say, HE-400i should be more efficient headphone than HD 600.
 
For additional useful info about the subject look at: https://diyaudioheaven.files.wordpress.com/2013/03/headphone-power-and-amplifiers.pdf

650 easyer to drive compared to 400i ?
and much more easyer than 600 ? i think the drives are the same for both

Hello people im thinking of buying these headphones. It would be my first planar magnetic headphone. For now i own HD 600, DT 880(600ohm) and Fidelio X2. I prefer the sound of X2,880 and HD 600 is last on my list. Would He 400i be a decent upgrade to these headphones? For amping i have Little dot mkIVSE and lovely cube. Listening mostly prog metal stuff.

marhol said:

   
I am also interested in the topic. I can´t give you  the definite answer as I do not have personal experience with all these headphones. Nevertheless, with the intention to shed some light on the subject, I´d like to add some data which might be useful. Hopefully, it will not add further confusion or derail this thread.

 
DISCLAIMER: All data used in this post are based on following sites: 
http://en-de.sennheiser.com/ (official Sennheiser´s site)
hifiman.com (official Hifiman site)
http://www.digizoid.com/headphones-power.html 
 
HD 600 and HD 650 impedance is for both 300 Ohm, HD 650 should be more efficient headphone than HD 600 because  its sound pressure level (SPL) per milliWatt is 103 dB in comparison to  97.0 dB (SPL/mW)- the parameter for HD 600. HE-400i impedance is much lower - at 35 Ohm but on the other side its sensitivity is only at 93.0 dB/mW.   However, in regard to overall efficiency, also the headphone sensitivity, given in dB of SPL/mW , is not of less importance.
What does it mean ? Which one is the most overall efficient headphone ? 
 
1) Well, it´s for sure that all three headphones are not the easiest to drive and you should better use them with a proper amplification. 
2) The general rule is: headphones with higher impedance ( think of HD 600/650) need more voltage and headphones with lower impedance need more current.
 It  means that Sennheisers (HD 600/650) will need more voltage and less current than HE-400i
 
See below for a comparison:
 
HE-400i (headphone impedance: 35 Ohm, headphone sensitivity: 93.0 dB SPL/mW)
 
             LISTENING LOUDNESS                    VOLTAGE NEEDED      CURRENT NEEDED     POWER NEEDED

Safe	85 dB SPL	0.07 Vrms	2 mA	0.14 mW
Moderate	100 dB SPL	0.42 Vrms	12 mA	5.04 mW
Fairly Loud	110 dB SPL	1.32 Vrms	37.71 mA	49.78 mW
Very Loud	115 dB SPL	2.36 Vrms	67.43 mA	159.13 mW
Painful	120 dB SPL	4.19 Vrms	119.71 mA	501.6 mW

 
HD 650 (impedance 300 Ohm, sensitivity: 103 dB SPL/mW
 
                     LISTENING LOUDNESS                                 VOLTAGE NEEDED                    CURRENT NEEDED          POWER NEEDED

Safe	85 dB SPL	0.07 Vrms	0.23 mA	0.02 mW
Moderate	100 dB SPL	0.39 Vrms	1.3 mA	0.51 mW
Fairly Loud	110 dB SPL	1.23 Vrms	4.1 mA	5.04 mW
Very Loud	115 dB SPL	2.18 Vrms	7.27 mA	15.84 mW
Painful	120 dB SPL	3.88 Vrms	12.93 mA	50.18 mW

 
 
 
HD 600 (impedance: 300 Ohm, sensitivity: 97.0 dB SPL/mW)
 
                        LISTENING LOUDNESS                                    VOLTAGE NEEDED               CURRENT NEEDED       POWER NEEDED

Safe	85 dB SPL	0.14 Vrms	0.47 mA	0.07 mW
Moderate	100 dB SPL	0.77 Vrms	2.57 mA	1.98 mW
Fairly Loud	110 dB SPL	2.45 Vrms	8.17 mA	20.01 mW
Very Loud	115 dB SPL	4.35 Vrms	14.5 mA	63.08 mW
Painful	120 dB SPL	7.74 Vrms	25.8 mA	199.69 mW

 
 
Based on these numbers, theoretically the easiest to drive headphone out of these, should be Sennheiser HD 650 - it needs the lowest voltage, the lowest amount of current and the lowest power output (voltage x current)  to sound desirably loud and (at the same time) sufficiently " well "  ( without apparent distortion). However the definite answer should give someone who owns / used to own/ or has had personal experience with both headphones...
 
 
Between HD 600 and HE-400i you can notice the latter demanding more power and more current but not demanding as much voltage as HD 600 does. So which one is the more efficient ? 
Well, the HE-400i should be a bit easier to drive than HD 600, because it needs much less voltage than HD 600, despite being more current/power hungry. I don´t have HD 600 but I used to own Beyerdynamic DT 990 (250 Ohm, 96.0 SPL/mW) - with pretty similar "efficiency" attributes  to HD 600 and indeed look at the numbers:
 
DT 990 (impedance: 250 Ohm, sensitivity: 96.0 SPL/mW)
 
                 LISTENING LOUDNESS                                         VOLTAGE NEEDED              CURRENT NEEDED          POWER NEEDED

Safe	85 dB SPL	0.14 Vrms	0.56 mA	0.08 mW
Moderate	100 dB SPL	0.79 Vrms	3.16 mA	2.5 mW
Fairly Loud	110 dB SPL	2.51 Vrms	10.04 mA	25.2 mW
Very Loud	115 dB SPL	4.46 Vrms	17.84 mA	79.57 mW
Painful	120 dB SPL	7.93 Vrms	31.72 mA	251.54 mW

 
From my personal experience Hifiman HE-400i was easier to drive than DT 990 on portable device (iBasso DX90) as well as on home desktop device ( laptop + Audioengine D1 as a DAC/headphone amp). With regards to very similar efficiency parameters vs HD 600 I would say, HE-400i should be more efficient headphone than HD 600.
 
For additional useful info about the subject look at: https://diyaudioheaven.files.wordpress.com/2013/03/headphone-power-and-amplifiers.pdf

Click to expand...

 
 

paulguru said:

  650 easyer to drive compared to 400i ?
and much more easyer than 600 ? i think the drives are the same for both

Click to expand...

 
 
 
I apologise for my faulty previous post, tried hard not to be confusing, but eventually despite the effort still was . That´s how the universe works, sigh - sometimes you have to measure not once or twice but at least 10 times and then you can cut... Especially when there are so many misleading sources on the internet...
So, in my previous post I took 103 db SPL as a parameter for HD 650 sensitivity. I checked it on various sites (including Sennheiser´s official - on behalf not to appear as a complete bonehead, uhm not enough...). To my defense,  there is plenty of misleading data regarding HD 650 efficiency: WAY many sites are giving this parameter for HD 650 sensitivity: 103 db SPL/mW, which is simply incorrect and misleading. It is 103 db SPL but not per  1 mW but per 1 Vrms and that´s significantly different rate !  To make it short HD 600 is truly 97.0 db SPL/mW but HD 650 sensitivity is not 103 db SPL/mW but  97.8 db SPL/mW.  This is the correct parameter for HD 650 sensitivity.
Bottom line:  HD 650 and HD 600 are similarly efficient headphones. HE-400i should be more efficient than HD 600 as well as HD 650. Here is the correct table for HD 650 :
 
HD 650, impedance: 300 Ohm, sensitivity: 97.8 SPL/ mW
 
            LISTENING LOUDNESS                                                                       VOLTAGE NEEDED                 CURRENT NEEDED             POWER NEEDED
 
Note:
The following recommended formula for converting SPL/ 1 Vrms  to SPL / 1 mW was used:
 
dB/mW = dB/V + 10*log(R*P2/V1^2)
 
where:
 
dB/V is the sensitivity in dB (SPL) at 1 volt rms into impedance R, 103 dB/V into 300 ohms in this case
R is the nominal impedance, 300 ohms in this case
V1 is the reference voltage for dB/V, 1 volt rms in this case
P2 is the reference power for dB/mW, 0.001 watt in this case
dB/mW is the sensitivity in dB (SPL) at 0.001 watt of power (that is 1 milliwatt)
log is the logarithm base 10
the symbol ^ means exponentiation (e.g. 2^3 = 2³ = 8)
 
 
Thus,in the HD 650 example we get the following number:
 
dB/mW = 103+10*log(300*0.001/1^2) = 97.8 
 
This number (97.8 db SPL/mW for HD 650) is also listed on this reference site:  http://www.audiobot9000.com/sennheiser/h/hd-650
 
My sources were: http://www.head-fi.org/t/168037/db-per-milliwhat-efficiency-vs-sensitivity-vs-how-loud-do-they-really-go/15#post_7005130
                          http://nwavguy.blogspot.sk/2011/09/more-power.html
                           http://www.audiobot9000.com/sennheiser/h/hd-600

d4rkch1ld said:

Hello people im thinking of buying these headphones. It would be my first planar magnetic headphone. For now i own HD 600, DT 880(600ohm) and Fidelio X2. I prefer the sound of X2,880 and HD 600 is last on my list. Would He 400i be a decent upgrade to these headphones? For amping i have Little dot mkIVSE and lovely cube. Listening mostly prog metal stuff.

Click to expand...

I have both the HD600 and 400i. For me I do not consider the 400i an upgrade, but more of a sideways move.

I'm inclined to agree that the 400i is not an upgrade over an HD600. More sideways. It's not particularly "better" sounding but it is definitely different sounding. I don't know enough about audio or audiophile terminology to explain what exactly is different about the sound.
 
I have listened to a number of headphones recently and I own the 400i. I think I would have been just as happy with HD600 or HD650 or maybe even HD598, honestly. For the most part, these headphones, though they all have differently flavored sound, are about the same overall quality as the 400i. If anything I think the 400i is tighter and faster. Note seperation on it is better.
 
Don't expect a massive jump in perceived fidelity or resolution with the 400i vs your HD600. I think you will need to go to a much higher end planar magnetic headphone for a true upgrade.
 
JM2C

tuco1965 said:

I have both the HD600 and 400i. For me I do not consider the 400i an upgrade, but more of a sideways move.

Click to expand...

 

mistersprinkles said:

  I'm inclined to agree that the 400i is not an upgrade over an HD600. More sideways. It's not particularly "better" sounding but it is definitely different sounding. I don't know enough about audio or audiophile terminology to explain what exactly is different about the sound.
 
I have listened to a number of headphones recently and I own the 400i. I think I would have been just as happy with HD600 or HD650 or maybe even HD598, honestly. For the most part, these headphones, though they all have differently flavored sound, are about the same overall quality as the 400i. If anything I think the 400i is tighter and faster. Note seperation on it is better.
 
Don't expect a massive jump in perceived fidelity or resolution with the 400i vs your HD600. I think you will need to go to a much higher end planar magnetic headphone for a true upgrade.
 
JM2C

Click to expand...

Agree with both of you that the HE-400i and HD-650/600 are sideways progression.
 
The HD-598 is not on this level IMO, it lacks the dynamics and FR of both the HE-400i and HE-650 to me and does not scale with better equipment.
 
I've been keeping most of the headphones that I've bought since I like each for its own unique sound signature so I'm not looking to "upgrade" just trying to find a different interpretation.

If anyone here has heard the M-Stage and Asgard 2, which pairs better with the HE-400i's? Mainly interested in soundstage, detail, imaging, and bass.

Thanks,
Gopanthersgo1

Could u please compare mids on HD600 and 400i? Im mainly inerested if 400i is forward in the mids as HD600. Is midrange elevated or recessed relative to the bass and highs?

d4rkch1ld said:

Could u please compare mids on HD600 and 400i? Im mainly inerested if 400i is forward in the mids as HD600. Is midrange elevated or recessed relative to the bass and highs?

Click to expand...

HE-400i midrange seems to be in good balance with bass and treble. The midrange (as a whole relative to bass and treble) is neither elevated nor recessed, although (main) vocals seem to be slightly forward - they appear to have their own space in soundstage. On some songs its more pronounced on some less- probably depends on the mastering. Sorry I can´t compare HE-400i with HD-600, as I haven´t heard HD 600.