Thoughts on a bunch of DACs (and why delta-sigma kinda sucks, just to get you to think about stuff)

Some further clarification re warmup:
 
I leave my sources on all the time at home. It is convenient for me and workable as I notice improvements over time temperature with NOT just D/A converters but amps, etc.etc. Purrin and others have also noticed this effect.
 
When I went on record 30 years ago with the Theta gear to leave it on four days I received a myriad of replies. Every thing from, “Screw you, I won't buy it if I have to leave it on” to “Mine sounded fine after a few hours.”
 
We have a very limited amount of pre-production Yggys floating around in the field. Most who have heard them are demanding listeners who are expert at hearing any flaws in equipment. YMMV.
 
Old Thetas I have heard don't seem to change over such a period of time. Perhaps they more “permanently” burned in. I have no idea, nor the time to study such matters statistically.
 
From time to time I have listened to other digital gear, and in my humble opinion, it gets better over a long period of time. The relevant consideration with much of this gear is, do I really want to keep listening to it that long?  Apparently the listeners to new Yggys wanted to keep going.
 
So don't get trapped in relative matters for gear you have never heard.
 
I have yet to hear a D/A converter that does not improve in its first week of life. Anybody's. Period.
 
I have nothing to say about other D/A converters other than my own because I have not heard them. I may be loud, old and opinionated, but have never commented on experiences I lack.
 
YMMV.
 
Oh, I forgot – YMMV.
 
And did I say, YMMV.

Just to add a little perspective, many other dac makers similarly suggest that their products be left on at all times for best results.  The same recommendation was made when I bought my modest keces dac, which is a well engineered little unit, but certainly no statement piece like the yggy.  I think it is just one of those things you need to accept as a necessary evil if you want your dac to sound as good as it can.
 
A lot of listeners seem to think that tube gear needs major warm up time while solid state gear should not.  In fact, it is arguably the reverse.  (See: http://www.theaudioarchive.com/TAA_Resources_Tubes_versus_Solid_State.htm , under transistor - disadvantages, "device parameters vary considerably with temperature")     

baldr said:

YMMV.
 
Oh, I forgot – YMMV.
 
And did I say, YMMV.

Click to expand...

 
So, you're sayin' there's a chance?

baldr said:

  Some further clarification re warmup:
 
I leave my sources on all the time at home. It is convenient for me and workable as I notice improvements over time temperature with NOT just D/A converters but amps, etc.etc. Purrin and others have also noticed this effect.
 
When I went on record 30 years ago with the Theta gear to leave it on four days I received a myriad of replies. Every thing from, “Screw you, I won't buy it if I have to leave it on” to “Mine sounded fine after a few hours.”
 
We have a very limited amount of pre-production Yggys floating around in the field. Most who have heard them are demanding listeners who are expert at hearing any flaws in equipment. YMMV.
 
Old Thetas I have heard don't seem to change over such a period of time. Perhaps they more “permanently” burn in. I have no idea, nor the time to study such matters statistically.
 
From time to time I have listened to other digital gear, and in my humble opinion, it gets better over a long period of time. The relevant consideration with much of this gear is, do I really want to keep listening to it that long?  Apparently the listeners to new Yggys wanted to keep going.
 
So don't get trapped in relative matters for gear you have never heard.
 
I have yet to hear a D/A converter that does not improve in its first week of life. Anybody's. Period.
 
I have nothing to say about other D/A converters other than my own because I have not heard them. I may be loud, old and opinionated, but have never commented on experiences I lack.
 
YMMV.
 
Oh, I forgot – YMMV.
 
And did I say, YMMV.

Click to expand...

+1,me too,unless it runs extremely hot

Does the Yggy have a "soft start" function where it's plugged in with the power switch on but the LEDs off? If so, would that state qualify as "powered on all the time"?

baldr said:

  Some further clarification re warm up:
 
I leave my sources on all the time at home. It is convenient for me and workable as I notice improvements over time temperature with NOT just D/A converters but amps, etc.etc. Purrin and others have also noticed this effect.
 
When I went on record 30 years ago with the Theta gear to leave it on four days I received a myriad of replies. Every thing from, “Screw you, I won't buy it if I have to leave it on” to “Mine sounded fine after a few hours.”
 
We have a very limited amount of pre-production Yggys floating around in the field. Most who have heard them are demanding listeners who are expert at hearing any flaws in equipment. YMMV.
 
Old Thetas I have heard don't seem to change over such a period of time. Perhaps they more “permanently” burn in. I have no idea, nor the time to study such matters statistically.
 
From time to time I have listened to other digital gear, and in my humble opinion, it gets better over a long period of time. The relevant consideration with much of this gear is, do I really want to keep listening to it that long?  Apparently the listeners to new Yggys wanted to keep going.
 
So don't get trapped in relative matters for gear you have never heard.
 
I have yet to hear a D/A converter that does not improve in its first week of life. Anybody's. Period.
 
I have nothing to say about other D/A converters other than my own because I have not heard them. I may be loud, old and opinionated, but have never commented on experiences I lack.
 
YMMV.
 
Oh, I forgot – YMMV.
 
And did I say, YMMV.

Click to expand...

Thanks for getting back to us ,on this
Recently,I received a new KGST amp,that was made to me,by Geoffrey.
When I opened the box,he left me a letter,to give the KGST,at least 2-300 hours.of break in,and NOT TO TURN IT OFF.
Now that I'm around 250-300 hours,I am hearing a big difference,inn SQ.
When-if I ever get the Yiggy..I will just leave it on
Question:-why were we being advised NOT to buy the Yiggy,if we want to leave it on..???
 
MikeS.

I have already said these things and will say it again.
 

• My 20 year old Theta Gen Va sounds fine right after I turn it on. I have observed that my Mjolnir requires much less warm up time than when I first got it a few years ago. It is entirely possible that over time, the Yggy may not require such a long warm up time. No guarantees.
• One way to get around the warm up issue is to leave the DAC on all the time. I tend to leave my DACs on. Some DACs I have owned did stay on all the time, e.g. PWD2. All the DACs where I gave impressions on in the first page were warmed-up at least two days, sometimes a week before evaluation.

 
At the meet, a banned HF'er and I found Yggy thin and grainy without much plankton at 12 hours. The Gen V was easily better in terms of tone, timbre, and resolution. 40 hours later around Sunday noon, Yggy started to get good. Around 44 hours, I started hear little spurts of the magic (let's just call it a vinyl-like effect instead of magic).
 
 
If the warm-up issue sounds too mysterious and you equate this phenomenon to the effect of "magic rocks", do not buy it, I repeat do not buy it. I think it is totally reasonable for someone to choose not to buy something that he/she thinks is magical BS. If you are concerned about not getting the best from the Yggy and can't bear the thought of not leaving it one all the time, then do not buy it. This is my genuine honest-to-goodness recommendation.

purrin said:

  On the warm up issue, there are two possibilities:
 

• zerodeefex, badr (Mike Moffat), and my observations (and a few others') on the warm up effect are real.
• Our ears got accustomed to the sound / we were subject to mysterious effects of the mind.

 
For those who believe in possibility #2 or are concerned about leaving the Yggy on all the time (keeping in mind that some DACs actually still stay on when turned off or some people leave their DACs on all the time), then I would advise them to not buy the Yggy.

Click to expand...

 
Originally Posted by mikek200 /img/forum/go_quote.gif
 
Question:-why were we being advised NOT to buy the Yiggy,if we want to leave it on..???
 
MikeS.

Click to expand...

 
To clarify, If you are NOT concerned about leaving the Yggy on all of the time, then obviously, it is non-issue for you.
 
If you think what I am saying about the Yggy needing this time to sound its best is BS, then please assume I am full of ****, and do not buy it.

magiccabbage said:

  So you are saying that it will need to be left on for prolonged periods all the time and not just during the first few weeks of burn in??
 
If so then balls!! Major big balls. 
 
I was hoping that this would just be a burn in issue at the start. Unfortunately there would be no possible way I could leave it on for hours on end except for maybe once at the weekend. 
Surely this is fixable? They hardly expect us to leave the thing on indefinitely?  

Click to expand...

I'm curious, will you keep the dedicated PC you plan on building powered up all the time?  

magiccabbage said:

  that's a fair point. 
 
If i cant get my hands on one in the next few weeks while im reviewing the Hugo TT then i will try and find someone in London who has one and call to them for a listen. I would be willing to fly over to hear one before or coming up to June. 

Click to expand...

 
There are ways to control / calibrate impressions at meets. Look for times that are quiet. Come in the early morning, or wait until the meet dies town and stack **** up to compare. Use the same set of reference recordings over and over again. Know how the amp sounds in terms of tonal balance and resolving capabilities to isolate the DAC's characteristics. Know what the listeners' sonic preferences are. Ask the listener what other gear he has heard and under what circumstances. Ask the listener what headphones and specific masters of recordings - he was using. Everything must be relative and controlled to each other as much as possible.
 
Using these techniques, I have been able to well discern how gear sounds even in less than ideal conditions. If I am not sure, I will say so. A good example of this is the HE1000. I have said that the HE1000 seems promising, but I was not able to control / isolate factors as much as I wished, hence no strong opinion on the headphone. 
 
The Cavalli Carbon sounded like ass the first time I heard it, until I realized it was the Cypher Labs portable DAC that sounded like ass. I isolated that DAC and replaced it with a better one which made the Carbon sound fantastic. In both instances, I used the same headphone and same recording that I was familiar with.
 
A few people commented that my setup at the meet, an EC2A3 custom amp + Yggy was on the bright sounding side. Most of my friends thought it was pretty darn neutral. By reference, neutral has in being very similar to the Ragnarok/Yddrasil combo's tonal balance. Everything is relative. Some people prefer a warmer sound. Some people like an analytical sound. Some people prefer a deep stage. Some people don't care about stage.
 
Finally, there are people I trust more than others. Usually people I have pm'd and have found common ground on shared experiences with gear. If what I say correlates 15% to own experience, by all means do not listen to me. If what I say correlates 80% to your own experience, then maybe give me a little bit more weight than random dude at meet with random headphones and random recordings.

Bemused by this issue. Maybe I've missed something. I have assumed the phrase "to sound its best" means 'in order to extract the last possible drop of super-performance'. As numerous real life factors can stop us 'hearing at our best' I really doubt I would notice the difference between Yggy at 99% of its best versus 99.99% - most of the time.

OTOH, if it's being claimed Yggy needs X-days warmup because until then it sounds like crap compared to 90% of all other DACs then this would certainly be an issue for anyone who can't or won't leave it turned on. But I really don't believe this is what's being said?!

My 2¢
State of the Art gear ALWAYS has issues, for someone.
Of course the same can be said for any gear, but SotA gear usually has a 'generous' serving of these types of issues.  
They don't exist to piss people off, but because in order to reach these degrees of sonic precision, certain compromises, or choices, were made in the design and implementation of the desire to push the SotA in new directions.  
And that is the point of a SotA device to push the envelope, to provide something that is unique.
 
This is nothing new nor unusual in any way.
And make no mistake Jggy IS a SotA DAC.
It comes from deep SotA roots and for those who have not ventured into these rarefied heights before, well there are and always have been certain requirements in order to play in this portion of the audio spectrum.
 
If the details surronding ANY piece of gear don't match your requirements then as JS states "If this doesn't work for you, I totally understand."
We're talking expectations here, some are realistic while others, not so much.
 
And since Jggy is a SotA DAC, it has it's strengths and weaknesses, just like ANY piece of gear does.
And like any SotA device there are 'costs' associated with 'living' with it.
Not to mention getting the most out of the device (aka tweaking it).
 
You either are willing and able to come to terms with this, or not.
This isn't rocket science (well the Jggy is) so it boils down to, you can either accept these strengths and weaknesses or rail against these realities.
The realities aren't going to change, which leaves it up to you.
 
IOW get over it.
Find another DAC that does meet your needs and enjoy your music…
 
That is after all what the real goal is after all, isn't it?
Enjoyment of music…
 
JJ

argo duck said:

Bemused by this issue. Maybe I've missed something. I have assumed the phrase "to sound its best" means 'in order to extract the last possible drop of super-performance'. As numerous real life factors can stop us 'hearing at our best' I really doubt I would notice the difference between Yggy at 99% of its best versus 99.99% - most of the time.

OTOH, if it's being claimed Yggy needs X-days warmup because until then it sounds like crap compared to 90% of all other DACs then this would certainly be an issue for anyone who can't or won't leave it turned on. But I really don't believe this is what's being said?!

Click to expand...

+1 Well said.

purrin said:

   
To clarify, If you are NOT concerned about leaving the Yggy on all of the time, then obviously, it is non-issue for you.
 
If you think what I am saying about the Yggy needing this time to sound its best is BS, then please assume I am full of ****, and do not buy it.

Click to expand...

Purrin,
Nothing you say..is..BS to me,OK?
I value your feedback,+ you were probably the only guy ,who had a properly warmed up Yiggy
 
MikeS

purrin said:

   
At the meet, a banned HF'er and I found Yggy thin and grainy without much plankton at 12 hours. The Gen V was easily better in terms of tone, timbre, and resolution. 40 hours later around Sunday noon, Yggy started to get good. Around 44 hours, I started hear little spurts of the magic (let's just call it a vinyl-like effect instead of magic).
 
 
 

Click to expand...

Plankton? I don't know, I find him gritty and annoying.