The Astell & Kern AK120

Gintaras · May 14, 2013 at 2:55 PM

KT, we talk about audiophiles, not about rich people... Here we have most people who are audiophiles, this is the reason why many of us do a lot of home work and spend enough time on forums to learn and exchange experience and information. Here you will meet many people who are music addicts and for every price you can find great gear. To give you an example, i spent good time today listening to my C3 and H200 combo and can assure you this sounds so good and has such a moderate price tag that it makes a no-brainer... But of course if you want more you have to pay more, this is why you have AK and else expensive offerings. Still a good audiophile setup can be bought on pretty sane and limted budget. Anyway, everyone is free in choice and i cannot lament about how much one has or can spend since this is not my money, ok? :-D

Hutnicks · May 14, 2013 at 3:53 PM

Quote:

gintaras said:
Hutnicks, sorry to disagree but "what is the most expensive" you usually ask in a jewelry shop, anyone asking this qiestion about hifi is either dumb or not an audiophile. I knew some enthisiasts who would rather assemble gear themselves than pay for finicky useless gear. I myself had to return more expensive DACs and kept my cheapo Rega just because what i tried did not offer me analogue sound smoothness, my next try is Metrum NOS which costs under 1k and that goes in after trying many far more expensive DACs.

So man, believe me, a true audiophile, and we all here are audiophiles, would not care about looks and else gimmicks, all we care is sound we want to hear from our gear. I never could care less about price tag unless we talk about musical instruments where price - quality has straight and direct relationship (if you ever had experience buying guitar or piano you would understand me).

But i agree with playback gear things are different and you often have to overpay for a good marketed brand, but no audiophile would ask for more expensive, rather for best sounding. Only those who have no idea would ask for expensive one.

That anything like buying a violin?

I build more equipment than I buy these days having gone through the stratospheric purchase phase and found that whole merry go round sorely lacking in musical substance. (although, I do keep an ancient Audio Alchemy dac around.....................just because

)
Quote:

kt66 said:
Most hi HIGH end HI-FI customers are not audiophiles at all, just rich people who like expensive things , that others reassure them are the best.

Bingo, you are both right. Easily 80 per cent of the clientelle were there to make a "Fashion Statement" and I doubt if the stuff ever got turned on unless there were friends over to be impressed. Upside for the dealer is they got the equipment back in pristine condition as soon as the new model came out and the buyer had to play "keep up"

It sincerely breaks my heart to see the headphone and portable world going down this same road. If this bloody abomination does not die stillborn, we wont be able to buy a portable player for under a grand in 3 years.

Gintaras · May 14, 2013 at 4:08 PM

Hutnicks, you kidding :-)

any musical instrument is soooooo difficult to choose and prices crazy, i am more experienced with key instruments like piano, how surprised was i when see proper Steinway asking price near 100k.... Fazioli grand piano even more crazy price and you will not be able to save much because no big discounts on proper instrument, rather you will have to wait months before receiving it. http://blog.houstonpianocompany.com/blog/bid/190492/Most-Expensive-Piano-Prices

So DAPs cost peanuts in comparison but i hope you do not call prominent musicians stupid because they buy expensive exclusively made instruments? :-D

btw, here you can check rather unique loudspeakers that i heard reproduce piano misic like no other irrespective of the price, truly surreal experience and glad they are available in Vienna where i live :-)

http://dagogo.com/bosendorfer-vc-7-floorstanding-speaker-review

Hutnicks · May 14, 2013 at 5:08 PM

Quote:

gintaras said:
Hutnicks, you kidding

any musical instrument is soooooo difficult to choose and prices crazy, i am more experienced with key instruments like piano, how surprised was i when see proper Steinway asking price near 100k.... Fazioli grand piano even more crazy price and you will not be able to save much because no big discounts on proper instrument, rather you will have to wait months before receiving it. http://blog.houstonpianocompany.com/blog/bid/190492/Most-Expensive-Piano-Prices

So DAPs cost peanuts in comparison but i hope you do not call prominent musicians stupid because they buy expensive exclusively made instruments? :-D

btw, here you can check rather unique loudspeakers that i heard reproduce piano misic like no other irrespective of the price, truly surreal experience and glad they are available in Vienna where i live http://dagogo.com/bosendorfer-vc-7-floorstanding-speaker-review

I should hope Bosendorfer could build a speaker that reproduced piano music. What are their Concert Grands selling for these days?

Theres good reason the most popular Concert Grand is Yamaha, pure price point.

Prominent musicians usually have little or no choice (unless they are fortunate enough to get donated use of an instrument). Also bear in mind it is their livelyhood and reputation at stake.

I doubt anyone ever got turned down for a job because they had too cheap a music player

I shall have to keep in mind you are Viennese.

I am in Culshaws camp when it comes to the outsiders view of your magnificent city.

Gintaras · May 14, 2013 at 5:51 PM

Hutnicks :-D

btw, if you want my opinion about portable setup on the budget that would sound just amazing and cost little this would be C3 Colorfly DAP with C&C BH amp and T-Peos H200 IEMs... The whole thing would cost some 440$ and would make you forget about upgrades unless you want to move up to monitor reference type sound, really unbeatable combo on the budget IMHO, i now listen to this while typing and can tell you this is big keeper. This as what concerns prices and sound. And bear in mind i also have Rwak as my top setup which sounds plain amaing with T1 and RDB+ but i would not sell my little budget combo no matter. This just proves that for every budget you can have great setup if invest some time and listen to what people say.

Hutnicks · May 14, 2013 at 7:33 PM

Quote:

gintaras said:
Hutnicks :-D

btw, if you want my opinion about portable setup on the budget that would sound just amazing and cost little this would be C3 Colorfly DAP with C&C BH amp and T-Peos H200 IEMs... The whole thing would cost some 440$ and would make you forget about upgrades unless you want to move up to monitor reference type sound, really unbeatable combo on the budget IMHO, i now listen to this while typing and can tell you this is big keeper. This as what concerns prices and sound. And bear in mind i also have Rwak as my top setup which sounds plain amaing with T1 and RDB+ but i would not sell my little budget combo no matter. This just proves that for every budget you can have great setup if invest some time and listen to what people say.

Well I'm not hurtning for portable rigs. Foavored right now is an S1 with the Neutron music player and either the Fiio E11 or a modified Fireye I amp. That little combo will push anything from ER4S to the unbelievable hard to drive Yamaha YH3 quite comfortably. Neutron player is a true wonder and a must have for android users. Outside of the headphones about a 250 dollar expense................for that rig

So there had better be quantum magnitudes of performance gain for anything 4 to 11 hundred dollars more. Thus far I have yet to experience it. That includes the AK100, so the 120 would pretty much have to move the stereo image 10 feet in front of me to impress. It would need to make me feel like I was sitting in front of a pair of Sophia's.

And still I am suspicious as to the sound improvement vs just buying a DAC AMP combo for say another 3 - 4 hundred.

LarsHP · May 15, 2013 at 4:13 AM

Are you talking about Samsung Galaxy S1? In that case a high end DAP should beat the S1 hands down no matter how good the external amp you combine it with IMO. If it's digital out to a HQ DAC-amp combo, then you would be closer in terms of SQ.

To me, the most important point in getting a high end DAP is having a very high SQ in a single smallish unit. A mobile phone (or a standard quality DAP) with a DAC-amp will easily be bulkier and less convenient than a high end DAP - especially compared to the A&K DAPs.

I haven't heard any of the A&K DAPs, but my HM-801 is much closer to a desktop DAC-amp in terms of SQ than a mobile phone (again IMO of course).

Hutnicks · May 15, 2013 at 4:32 AM

Quote:

larshp said:
Are you talking about Samsung Galaxy S1? In that case a high end DAP should beat the S1 hands down no matter how good the external amp you combine it with IMO. If it's digital out to a HQ DAC-amp combo, then you would be closer in terms of SQ.

To me, the most important point in getting a high end DAP is having a very high SQ in a single smallish unit. A mobile phone (or a standard quality DAP) with a DAC-amp will easily be bulkier and less convenient than a high end DAP - especially compared to the A&K DAPs.

I haven't heard any of the A&K DAPs, but my HM-801 is much closer to a desktop DAC-amp in terms of SQ than a mobile phone (again IMO of course).

Ahem, and guess which dac the samsung is using?

KT66 · May 15, 2013 at 4:48 AM

Quote:

hutnicks said:
Bingo, you are both right. Easily 80 per cent of the clientelle were there to make a "Fashion Statement" and I doubt if the stuff ever got turned on unless there were friends over to be impressed. Upside for the dealer is they got the equipment back in pristine condition as soon as the new model came out and the buyer had to play "keep up"

It sincerely breaks my heart to see the headphone and portable world going down this same road. If this bloody abomination does not die stillborn, we wont be able to buy a portable player for under a grand in 3 years.

I used to work at a hi end audio shop in London, before I worked there I expected to have loads
of fascinating chats with HIFI enthusiasts, but really neither the customers or indeed the staff are interested, at that level.

You also get a lot of single brand customers, eg Naim or Meridian, who just must have their latest upgrade, and actually no
nothing of alternatives. They don't read HIFI mags and certainly not forums, haven't heard of the loudness wars, and would rather
talk about cars or watches.

For me it all depends if the big boys like Linn, Naim, Arcam and Meridian start making them.
If they do it will mean a great success for the industry, but it will start pricing people out.

The absurd pricing now of HIFI actually sent me here, I literally cannot afford to upgrade my 2 channel system, any real improvement anywhere
would be £3k if not more.
Where as I can get a used HM-801 and DT1350s for £500/£600 and be in real sonic nirvana anywhere.

Hutnicks · May 15, 2013 at 5:12 AM

Quote:

kt66 said:
I used to work at a hi end audio shop in London, before I worked there I expected to have loads
of fascinating chats with HIFI enthusiasts, but really neither the customers or indeed the staff are interested, at that level.

You also get a lot of single brand customers, eg Naim or Meridian, who just must have their latest upgrade, and actually no
nothing of alternatives. They don't read HIFI mags and certainly not forums, haven't heard of the loudness wars, and would rather
talk about cars or watches.

For me it all depends if the big boys like Linn, Naim, Arcam and Meridian start making them.
If they do it will mean a great success for the industry, but it will start pricing people out.

The absurd pricing now of HIFI actually sent me here, I literally cannot afford to upgrade my 2 channel system, any real improvement anywhere
would be £3k if not more.
Where as I can get a used HM-801 and DT1350s for £500/£600 and be in real sonic nirvana anywhere.

Yes. The real music fans always came in and bought the used stuff. Paid half price for last years model and had a system they could live with and love.

The only problem with Linn Naim Quad Arcam or Meridian getting into the DAP market will be much like every speaker manu getting into headphones. The first go round will be a quick cash and market share grab to finance the real product which will be the second gen products.

That said. AK (bet they never thought of the negative impression that names abbreviation carried

) had better grab the money and run with this one. If the big boys come out to play, these things will be up on theivesbay at cut rate prices for christmas

Several hundred years of combined hardware engineering and manufacturing expertise will roll over the new guys like a repaving effort on the M1.

audionewbi · May 15, 2013 at 5:22 AM

You are making it sound so easy. End of the day the decision is made by the finance guys, they will not ever risk coming into an unseen territory.

Truth be told the key problem with Astell and Kern is the pricing. I can promise you if the AK100 was to sell at 300-400 price people will buy it even with the impedance issues.
At the right price anything can be sold.

Quote:

hutnicks said:
Yes. The real music fans always came in and bought the used stuff. Paid half price for last years model and had a system they could live with and love.

The only problem with Linn Naim Quad Arcam or Meridian getting into the DAP market will be much like every speaker manu getting into headphones. The first go round will be a quick cash and market share grab to finance the real product which will be the second gen products.

That said. AK (bet they never thought of the negative impression that names abbreviation carried) had better grab the money and run with this one. If the big boys come out to play, these things will be up on theivesbay at cut rate prices for christmas

Several hundred years of combined hardware engineering and manufacturing expertise will roll over the new guys like a repaving effort on the M1.

Gintaras · May 15, 2013 at 5:31 AM

Hutnicks, the problem is big boys are not showing much willingness to go into portable audio world not least because they will face stern competition from Apple and similar giants who beat everyone into dust with their massive well marketed products. check iPod market share and compare to Iriver or Cowon, see the difference? so i am afraid your and my wish to see Naim or similar rolling out a DAP product is more wishful thinking seriously speaking. Presently audiophile portable market is dominated by Chinese and Korean companies and i am afraid this will remain so for some time to come.

Audionewbi, agree on AK100, for 300-400$ people would be lining up for it :-D

LarsHP · May 15, 2013 at 6:41 AM

Quote:

hutnicks said:
Ahem, and guess which dac the samsung is using?

The DAC chip is just one part of a big chain and setup.

Generally speaking - even using the worlds best DAC chip is not going to bring us super duper sound unless the implementation / construction is also to notch. This is why even truly high end DACs not always use the best measuring DAC chips and still sound MUCH better than a DAC featuring the top DAC chip, but average power supply, filter etc. Implementation of the DAC chip is generally considered much more important than the chip itself. This is what many experienced and knowledgable people have observed and not just my opinion.

Gintaras · May 15, 2013 at 10:11 AM

Lars, +1 on DAC

Gintaras · May 15, 2013 at 10:13 AM

Quote:

spkrs01 said:
I will spend this weekend and look at values.......and compare the:-

AK100 v AK100/ RX3 v AK100/ SR 71B v AK120 I can assure you now that the amped AK100s sounds better than the RWAK100 and AK100 Stage 1 and Stage 2 mods.

This comparison will be about synergy with (C)IEMs and how the $1,400 AK120 stacks up against the $1800 mini stacks......

Spkrs, you want me to lose sleep? love Golden one, Gold!!!!!!!!!!!!!! :-D

if i buy one AK120 finally i will give my wife your tel number to complain :-)

)))))))))))

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