PONO - Neil Youngs portable hi-res music player
Jul 30, 2014 at 2:30 AM Post #1,051 of 4,866
Still have to wonder how many of the suits lost their jobs at the big labels when the industry moved from physical media to downloads and streaming - it definitely didnt make the starving artists any happier. They mightnt have been wowed by the iTunes model but Spotify and Pandora reportedly pay them fractions of a cent for their content. I still think Lars is a complete dropkick but he may have seen the writing on the wall with Napster. 
 
Aug 1, 2014 at 2:22 AM Post #1,052 of 4,866
Still have to wonder how many of the suits lost their jobs at the big labels when the industry moved from physical media to downloads and streaming - it definitely didnt make the starving artists any happier. They mightnt have been wowed by the iTunes model but Spotify and Pandora reportedly pay them fractions of a cent for their content. I still think Lars is a complete dropkick but he may have seen the writing on the wall with Napster. 


Nice points on current profitability of music for the artists. As for Napster as Lar's boogeyman I see two culprits.

Now before you read what I'm about to say I want to preface it by saying I am now an adult, a generous(forcibly) tax contributor, and contrary to how my tone may sound below I'm a capitalist. I am also ready to throw money at Neil Young and his music service if there is a chance it will send Rick Rubin in to retirement with his legacy forever shamed.

I'd like to share my experience on Napster, mp3s and the eventual day that Metallic lost street cred while testifying before congress.

Having been one of the evil kids that may have been tempted to jump on the Napster train in 1999 I must say the record companies bore much of the blame as well. When I was old enough to operate my parents turntable I was immediately infected with the music bug. In 1999 I was 16 years old and owned hundreds of CDs. When a new album was released in 1980 it could be had for $5-6 at the local record store. The single was $1.25 or so. When I went to Best Buy or Tower Records on release day in 1999 the album was $18.99. If I was lucky and they were the feature release of the week it was $15.99. Japanese release with 1 bonus track? That will be $50 young man. At that point in my life albums consumed every dollar handed to me with love by my parents and every dime I earned at my job after school. Inflation adjusted that 1980 album would cost $10 in 1999. To make things even worse the production costs of CDs at that point were far lower than vinyl was in 1980. To myself, and my unaware parents, Napster was a potential divine deliverance.

Before it sounds like I'm bestowing sainthood on Napster it needs to be said that what Napster facilitated and my peers may or may not have done was wrong. There is no justification that makes stealing acceptable. I will say though that unless Sony was helping themselves to 40% of the sales revenue in format license fees, record companies were making historic margins. By the time Napster launched they(the record industry) had helped themselves to two pounds of my flesh, likely more. It was so bad that spending an entire summer's worth of savings on a $250 32mb Diamond Rio .mp3 player and a $150 Memorex 1X burner(to back up my albums in case of scratching) was a bargain when considering my normal music spending habits.

Looking back as someone who was neck deep in the Napster coup on music a lot of its rapid ascendency was due to the stage being so well set for it by the record companies. Owning music had gone from a hobby to a serious budget decision when you could eat a steak at Outback for what you spent on the new Fatboy Slim album!

With that said, I'm excited for what a competing hifi music service might do to reverse current trends in music. With better quality tracks and equipment comes a deeper emotional investment. This can only be good for the future profitability of artists who can now self release or negotiate better royalties for hq downloads that people see more value in.
 
Aug 1, 2014 at 8:46 AM Post #1,053 of 4,866
.... the Napster coup on music a lot of its rapid ascendency was due to the stage being so well set for it by the record companies.

 
 
Yes. I agree. It was even worse in the UK.
 
 
 
But look what is already happening with HiRes:-     24/192 is being hawked at circa $24 per album.
 
 
The Greedy F's never learn!!
angry_face.gif

 
Aug 1, 2014 at 1:54 PM Post #1,054 of 4,866
   
 
Yes. I agree. It was even worse in the UK.
 
 
 
But look what is already happening with HiRes:-     24/192 is being hawked at circa $24 per album.
 
 
The Greedy F's never learn!!
angry_face.gif

 
I could live with that if I wasnt still reading reports of companies upsampling the Redbook CD master to sell it as 'hi-rez',  And these are the people who want to lecture us about the evils of theft ........ 
 
Aug 1, 2014 at 6:30 PM Post #1,055 of 4,866
Can some please tell me where i can get specific information and reviews about hi res recordings that people believe that are well done or especially NOT well done/engineered.  I have been looking all over can can't find a trusted source.
 
Aug 1, 2014 at 6:33 PM Post #1,056 of 4,866
Some of the statements in threads like this make my head explode.  It's not theft, it's commerce.  If a company creates a product and people want and they buy it, that's the way it is supposed to work.  If someone thinks it's not worth the price or that it's not all it's cracked up to be, then don't buy it.  Plain and simple.  And if I buy something for a dollar and can get customers to pay me $50 for it, I'm not stealing from them I am conducting capitalism.  but if someone takes or copies my property and distributes it in a way that limits my ability to realize commerce from it, THAT'S theft. 
 
Some people need to go to school and learn how the world works.
 
Aug 1, 2014 at 8:42 PM Post #1,057 of 4,866
  Some of the statements in threads like this make my head explode.  It's not theft, it's commerce.  If a company creates a product and people want and they buy it, that's the way it is supposed to work.  If someone thinks it's not worth the price or that it's not all it's cracked up to be, then don't buy it.  Plain and simple.  And if I buy something for a dollar and can get customers to pay me $50 for it, I'm not stealing from them I am conducting capitalism.  but if someone takes or copies my property and distributes it in a way that limits my ability to realize commerce from it, THAT'S theft. 
 
Some people need to go to school and learn how the world works.

 
Hmm - a little patronising, no ? My comments re theft have nothing to do with a business being able to sell a dollars worth of raw material for $50 - I completely get the profit motive - but trying to pass off Redbook source material as 'hi-rez' is fraud. The last time I checked, fraud was considered a crime in most countries - it's theft by deception when a company profits from it. Rebadge a base-model Chevrolet for sale as a Cadillac and you'll cop howls of protest from the motoring industry and possibly a few lawsuits from people who believe you've devalued the brand - rebadge your CD back catalog as hi-rez and chances are you can sell old boots for new money. If you're from the school that believes 'audiophools' brought this on themselves in the headlong rush to higher resolution formats, fine, but we should be getting what we pay for. I want the analog master to be the basis for my 24/96 downloads, but apparently there are record company execs who believe their software can 'guesstimate' what's missing on the CD master - how very convenient and potentially very profitable for an industry grappling with the end of their stranglehold on content delivery. 
 
http://www.whathifi.com/news/victors-plan-to-turn-cds-high-resolution-threatens-entire-hd-music-industry
 
I pay for my digital downloads - including HDTracks - and I still buy CDs, but I do know a few Gen Y'ers who are openly derisive of anyone who still pays for music or movies. I admit to being gobsmacked by this, particularly the attitude that the artists themselves will continue to make money if no-one buys their recorded material - I can only assume we are talking marketing and endorsements or some other revenue stream available to musicians who havent sold a single album, digitally or otherwise ........ 
 
Aug 1, 2014 at 9:07 PM Post #1,058 of 4,866
  Can some please tell me where i can get specific information and reviews about hi res recordings that people believe that are well done or especially NOT well done/engineered.  I have been looking all over can can't find a trusted source.

 
Good luck with that - basically I find myself googling the album name+HDTracks or whatever your content provider is, and if I'm lucky I get something like this:
 
http://www.computeraudiophile.com/f13-audiophile-downloads/dream-theater-hdtracks-10818/
 
Sadly, HDTracks seems to come in for more criticism than any of the other providers, presumably because they're the Big Kahuna. 
 
http://www.metal-fi.com/hdtracks-continues-disappoint/
 
I'm still less than entranced with the selection on offer at HDTracks, but at least we have other options now.
 
http://www.findhdmusic.com/albums/search?q=Dream+Theater
 
Aug 1, 2014 at 9:15 PM Post #1,059 of 4,866
 
Can some please tell me where i can get specific information and reviews about hi res recordings that people believe that are well done or especially NOT well done/engineered.  I have been looking all over can can't find a trusted source.


Good luck with that - basically I find myself googling the album name+HDTracks or whatever your content provider is, and if I'm lucky I get something like this:

http://www.computeraudiophile.com/f13-audiophile-downloads/dream-theater-hdtracks-10818/

Sadly, HDTracks seems to come in for more criticism than any of the other providers, presumably because they're the Big Kahuna. 

http://www.metal-fi.com/hdtracks-continues-disappoint/

I'm still less than entranced with the selection on offer at HDTracks, but at least we have other options now.

http://www.findhdmusic.com/albums/search?q=Dream+Theater

I've abandoned HD Tracks for their lack of transparency of the albums they offer. Instead, other individuals who took the risk to purchase the albums have to find out themselves.
http://www.computeraudiophile.com/content/476-high-res-blu-ray-ssd-enclosure-and-incredible-laptop-sleeve/
^ American Idiot is one of the very few albums that actually has a speck of information regarding how it was recorded

Cookie Marenco of Blue Coast Records will tell you a lot more information about how their albums were recorded and mastered. They tend to record and master their albums in DSD, but the Pono Player can't playback DSD format.
2L Records tends to record their albums in DXD format (24/352.8), except the Pono Player can't playback DXD.
I haven't pinged Linn Records yet, but their recordings are usually of high quality as well.
 
Aug 2, 2014 at 2:05 AM Post #1,060 of 4,866
Selling 16/44 as 24/192 is fraud not commerce.

Some people need a dictionary to differentiate between both of these and I am bitter because I got swindled by these fraudsters. With friends like these, the music business doesn't need enemies.
 
Aug 2, 2014 at 4:49 AM Post #1,062 of 4,866
Selling 16/44 as 24/192 is fraud not commerce.

Some people need a dictionary to differentiate between both of these and I am bitter because I got swindled by these fraudsters. With friends like these, the music business doesn't need enemies.




I could live with that if I wasnt still reading reports of companies upsampling the Redbook CD master to sell it as 'hi-rez',  And these are the people who want to lecture us about the evils of theft ........ 


From these and other comments it seems that the real opportunity for the Pono service is providing higher quality music with full transparency about the origin of the remastered track.
 
Aug 2, 2014 at 6:39 AM Post #1,063 of 4,866
From these and other comments it seems that the real opportunity for the Pono service is providing higher quality music with full transparency about the origin of the remastered track.

 
I completely agree, which is why I am disheartened to see the PONO venture buying-in to an existing catalgoue (Omnifone), unless (and this remains to be seen) they intend to collaborate with Omnifone only for their web-based / cloud-based storefront and content distribution engine, rather than for dubiously re-labeling Omnifone's own content with a PONO badge.
 
I see PONO as being able to improve the industry, by competing with existing vendors in (for example) the following ways:
 
  1. Price (although since the record label is the greediest factor, I concede that Neil largely has his hands tied with this)
  2. Quality & Integrity of content
  3. Transparency of both the origin and the mastering method for each album
  4. Description of the dynamic range of each album, and honestly noting any legitimate but unavoidable flaws in the master
 
 
There is definitely a real opportunity here, but I fear it may get overlooked in favour of accelerating the number of 'PONO' content offerings when they hit the market.
 
 
 

 
 
 
As for the discussion about theft vs commerce, in addition to the salient rebuttals already proffered, regarding fraudulent upsampling, I'll also add that I don't think anyone's post was promoting theft - the discussion was simply observing that if, in the name of 'commerce', record execs greedily price-gouge their customers, then they have only themselves to blame when their greed kills their golden goose.
 
 
 

 
 
 
FTR, I don't anticipate Neil intentionally having anything to do with fraudulent upsampling - I think I trust him enough to have the integrity to steer clear of that particular gravy train. But I do have concerns that he can't guarantee the quality of the (re)mastering unless he absolutely nails down the procedure for each and every PONO content release; something which will take enormous diligence, and no buying-in to other vendors' catalogues unless those vendors have themselves the integrity to ensure genuine quality of the master.
 
Linn Records, in the UK, are generally pretty good with the quality of their own-label releases, but now that they are vending quite a few releases from 3rd-party labels (including some also vended by HDTracks, in the USA), I must admit I've been wondering how tightly Linn are QCing those...
 
In spite of some of their very dubious offerings, HD Tracks have nonetheless shown themselves capable of providing their customers with detailed information on the mastering procedure for some of the albums they offer, so there is absolutely no reason why PONO cannot make this transparent provision of information to the customer a de facto standard for all their content.
 
 
ALL these labels and vendors should be selling only those Hi-Res tracks which have been sampled directly from the original master or remaster; that much is clear, but PONO have made by far the biggest song-and-dance about how they're going to 'change the industry', so the only way they can genuinely accomplish that is by nailing-down the integrity of their content until it's absolutely water-tight. If they don't, it's not just going to be carnage - it'll be an all-out blood bath and Neil will be the laughing stock of the industry.
 
Here's hoping Neil makes the effort to ensure it's done properly, reliably, and consistently, even if the pricing still sucks...
rolleyes.gif

 

 
Aug 2, 2014 at 8:57 AM Post #1,065 of 4,866
Thank you for linking it. They did mention that they would be vetting the recordings submitted by the record companies and rejecting up sampled tracks.

I'm hopeful... If it starts to look any better I'm going to die inside for not getting in on the kickstarter.
 

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