[Amarphael]

Holy F**!, where'd you pull these from...? yeah, The MDR1-Q010 is the about the worst (or the best, depends where you standing) case for inferring to SQ traits from visual translation...  nasty nasty super-bat-phones.

 
I do tend to agree with most of what i see in graphs, but only in those cases that i've heard myself. It's best to be just as skeptic aboit the measurement results as about the varied impressions of people that have actually had some time with the phones at hand. People can throw any charts and raw data they want, but if they didn't verify that info with their own ears it's just speculation for all i care.

 

[briskly]

^6moons
 
Lacking low end presence, plenty of treble spikes, hotspots and ringing. That's what it looks like to me. Haven't heard it.

 

[kiteki]

^6moons
 
Lacking low end presence, plenty of treble spikes, hotspots and ringing. That's what it looks like to me. Haven't heard it.

 
 
Wow, and it sells for twice it's RRP second-hand, care to show me another headphone which has achieved that?
 
Do you think an Ultrasone will achieve that?  Technology are design are indicators of performance which is why the T70p sounds a lot better than the DT990.
 
The pseudo-scientists can continue to evaluate the latest 3D television with a spectrometer but it's not like I'm ever going to take anything they say seriously.
 

 
 
 
All this FR / CSD stuff is is "the Clip+ is the most accurate neutral source ever" part II.
 
That conclusion was made via RMAA (pretending it's a total indicator), it's funny an entire site is dedicated to that notion.
 
RMAA was subsequently torn apart if you search for this "2011/02/rightmark-audio-analyzer-rmaa.html"
 
So if you want to keep typing with your lab coat on you bought at K-mart go ahead.

 

[Digital-Pride]

Okay!  Let's agree to disagree.  Pretty please?  With a cherry on top.

 

[briskly]

Quote:

 
Wow, and it sells for twice it's RRP second-hand, care to show me another headphone which has achieved that?
 
 
 
Okay, now hold it just a second. You asked what could be drawn from those square waves. I gave you my answer about what I saw in that. Not whether it would sound good or anything like that.
 
I'm also sure that the AKG K1000 and Grado HP-1000 have doubled in price since EOL, whatever that means,
 
 
 
Do you think an Ultrasone will achieve that?  Technology are design are indicators of performance which is why the T70p sounds a lot better than the DT990.
 
The pseudo-scientists can continue to evaluate the latest 3D television with a spectrometer but it's not like I'm ever going to take anything they say seriously.
 
 
There are other priorities at work here. The bigger magnets also increase the miserable efficiency of the DT beyers, starting with DT770 -> T70. What's more, Beyer may feel they can appeal to more listeners with the new tuning.
 
Obviously, there are other appealing qualities about a headphone. The HD800 has a pronounced treble that makes it difficult to enjoy, yet can win people back with its imaging, resolution, and its clarity. To use a video example, a faster 120hz TN panel is useful for gaming with its lower lag and increased smoothness. That does not mean that a slower, color accurate monitor is useless or undesirable.
 
 
All this FR / CSD stuff is is "the Clip+ is the most accurate neutral source ever" part II.
 
That conclusion was made via RMAA (pretending it's a total indicator), it's funny an entire site is dedicated to that notion.
 
RMAA was subsequently torn apart if you search for this
 
 
I'm not really sure what you are going on about. Are you criticizing the validity of the testing rig? Concerning system precision, they've (Tyll and Purrin) have at least shown that their rig tolerances to be fairly small and to be consistent to their own results and what they hear. Or are you skeptical of this information that can be packed into a frequency/amplitude/time plot? These are all important characteristics of a headphone and very relevant to the user experience, though not the sole qualifiers of a good headphone.
 
By the way, the Clip+ was measured and found to be linear, at very least (via dscope). There are other measurements that he has at his disposal, too, that he used to back up his conclusion of the Clip's transparency. So the Clip+ can keep its good measures while it stays in stock.
 
 
So if you want to keep typing with your lab coat on you bought at K-mart go ahead.

 

[kiteki]

Okay.  Anyway the most direct solution to any of this is blind evaluation.  Listening to music / audio is by it's nature blind.
 
I'd like to see someone compare the DT990 and T70p not knowing which is which, that is useful information imho.
 
I've already made up my mind the T70p is a really good HP though, not very interested in the SRH-940 anymore.

 

[kiteki]

Originally Posted by briskly /img/forum/go_quote.gif
 
 that he used to back up the conclusion of the Clip's transparency

 
What's the point in the ODAC then if the Clip+ is already 'transparent'.

 

[theeyealtering]

I've already made up my mind the T70p is a really good HP though, not very interested in the SRH-940 anymore.

It's a great headphone. I had the chance to compare the T70 and T70p with the DT990 (among others) recently and (aside from the T5p which is another league) I thought the T70 and T70p were easily the best I heard at the time. I've since bought a T70. I couldn't hear a lot of difference between the T70 and T70p, only the T70p was a little louder and more dynamic when I tried it from my phone.

The DT990 I heard for the first time and I hated it. It sounded sloppy by comparison. Boomy bass and harsh, nasty treble is how I'd describe it. Maybe the signature is to some people's tastes, but not mine.

 

[Nordwestlicht]

So... how is the T90 compared to the T1?
Is the T90 generally useful for classical music?
 
I've cancelled my order some weeks ago, because I'm mainly listening with my modded HD800 and there are over two dozen other good headphones already "rusting" in my cupboard...

 
I really didn't like the T70, because:
 
While the T70 sounded pretty accurate, it had some unbearable resonances (I'm very sensitive when it comes to that).
My DT770 Ed. has lesser of those resonances, but nevertheless I've damped it, to reduce them some more.
And in the end there are still resonances left.
(And this is one thing I like so much about the HD800: the open, quasi resonance free sound.)
 
Btw. I think the new Tesla driver is partly some kind of marketing concept and overrated.
 
The old DT48 already has a great driver and delivers great detailed sound for a can that age. I like the old DT48 even more than my DT880 Edition 2003, DT770 Edition and of cause T70.
 
The DT990 Edition, btw., was way to piercing for me and the bass was also not my cup of tea... that made them to one of the worst headphones from Beyerdynamic IMHO. 
(I don't like the "T50p plus new pads", too. It has a great kicking bass, but it has a weird frequency response and also a huge amount of resonances.)
The T90 I would consider being called semi-open, and not open, because of the relatively small hole in the cup. Maybe there won't/can't be a T80 because of this?!

 
Out of the whole Beyerdynamic portfolio from today, the T1 truly is something special, but I've come to the conclusion, that the angled drivers are in some extent responsible for this and not mainly the Tesla technology.
 
But maybe I'm wrong... these are just my thoughts.
 
This would be my "Beyerdynamic Hall of Fame" atm.:
 
01. T1
02. DT48
03. DT880 Ed. 2003
04. DT770 Ed. / 250 (+specially damped, +new foam disks [look here, if interested: http://www.beyerdynamic.de/shop/hah/ersatzteile/schaumstoffscheibe-2.html ])
05. DT880 Ed. / 600
06. DT990 Ed. / 600
07. DT250 / 250
08. T70
09. DTX800
10. DT231
 
Question:
 
Where's the T90 gonna be?!
Greetings from Germany

 

[kiteki]

I've already made up my mind the T70p is a really good HP though, not very interested in the SRH-940 anymore.

 
It's a great headphone. I had the chance to compare the T70 and T70p with the DT990 (among others) recently and (aside from the T5p which is another league) I thought the T70 and T70p were easily the best I heard at the time. I've since bought a T70. I couldn't hear a lot of difference between the T70 and T70p, only the T70p was a little louder and more dynamic when I tried it from my phone.

The DT990 I heard for the first time and I hated it. It sounded sloppy by comparison. Boomy bass and harsh, nasty treble is how I'd describe it. Maybe the signature is to some people's tastes, but not mine.

 
Exactly.  I believe your impressions since they pretty much mirror mine, (except my T5p isn't really in another league compared to the T70 / T70p, not in all aspects that's for sure)
 
Now, where to find this evidence on paper?
 
Oh wait ... http://www.head-fi.org/t/608828/dilemma-should-i-not-believe-any-reviewers-who-talk-about-cables-or-just-ignore-that-section-of-their-review/840#post_8432131

 

[Questhate]

Quote:

 
What's the point in the ODAC then if the Clip+ is already 'transparent'.

 
Not sure if you're really serious, but the Clip+ is for portable music and the ODAC is for playing music through your computer...
 
As far as your other points, briskly addressed them much more eloquently than I could have. No one is telling you to forego listening in favor of measurements. And no one is saying all measurements are created equal. But measurements can be a useful tool to compare headphones. 
 
I don't buy a car based solely on 0-60 times, skidpad numbers, slalom times and lap times, etc. But I'm sure glad that information is available to me. 

 

[kiteki]

 
Not sure if you're really serious, but the Clip+ is for portable music and the ODAC is for playing music through your computer...

 
Sorry, are you and briskly saying both the Clip+ and ODAC sound exactly identical, or not?  There is only one kind of transparency.
 
 

 
No one is telling you to forego listening in favor of measurements. And no one is saying all measurements are created equal. But measurements can be a useful tool to compare headphones.

 
They can be a useful tool - but not when the people which listen to the T70p says it's very good, and the ones which look at the available data say it's a DT990 with more ringing lol.
 
I am pretty sure, that when people say Beyer needs to step up their game, they are directly implying that Beyer should "forego listening in favour of FR / CSD" etc.
 
Just click on the link to the "Dilemma" thread, I've elucidated my point there.  Now back to listening, have a nice day and thanks for your comments!

 

[Digital-Pride]

Kiteki, I don't think it's unreasonable to look at sound from both viewpoints, recognizing the value of both measurements and subjective listening impressions. 

 

[Coq de Combat]

Quote:

Kiteki, I don't it's unreasonable to look at sound from both viewpoints, recognizing the value of both measurements and subjective listening impressions. 

I think Kitekis point is that while measurements can be useful as tools, one shouldn't put a complete trust in them; I think Kiteki means that there are intangibles to take into consideration as well. Stuff like imaging and such, are probably a little harder to read out of a FR chart.

 

[dragoonv]

can we get back to T90