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V-MODA M-100: Discussion/Feedback, Reviews, Pics, etc. - Page 1287

post #19291 of 22850
Quote:
Originally Posted by SomeGuyDude View Post

Great way of putting it! I agree. I think I've kinda topped out the significant gains, and from here on out... I mean, like I said, the Denons sounded great, and so did the HD800s, but frankly for my listening habits I don't see a need to spring more unless I just have money coming out my ears. 

My post was to hopefully let other M100 owners know where the product sits in terms of the overall spectrum and either ease some minds (if they're looking up the price chain) or pique curiosity.

Of all my past and present cans the m100 still remains in the family for an exceptionally good reason.

The m50's hit a sweet spot in "the signature" of the sound.
This supercedes the fact that it is bass heavy or treble edgy or not as clear as the top cans simply because you can ENJOY the music thru them.

It is easy for the brain to adjust to their signature sound.
Quote:
Originally Posted by SomeGuyDude View Post

I had earlier said I believed they had some burn in. This post definitely left me re-thinking that. I wonder if that's how people get to thinking headphones are imbalanced one way or another: they adjust to a given headphone's sound signature. Like if I spent a few weeks on a pair of Grados would I think the M100s are a bloated bassy mess? 

Yes once your brain adjusts to a certain can signature, you will notice this effect.
The trick is finding the can that you can most easily adjust to. .


Quote:
Originally Posted by kyuuketsuki View Post

You realize by comparing two completely different headphones, you already jeopardized your opinion on the matter. I've done double blind tests with about 15 different headphones (having worked in a headphone shop for about 2 years) and can tell you that the adaptation to sound has a far greater impact on how one perceives the sound than actual physical changes of the headphone.

Also, keep in mind I am not suggesting that it doesn't exist at all, just that most of the time, when people say they experience "burn in" it is just their mind getting used to a new headphone's sound. Even Tyll has studied it and his tests has shown the phenomenon to be inconclusive. There are changes in the driver, but the questions then become "are these changes within the threshold of human perception" and "can this be consistently obtained." Naturally all headphones will have some physical changes and even the smallest things can have impact on sound (also I'd put good money on the answer to the latter question being "no"). The XL pads change the sound inherently by measurement, however that does not mean that everyone can hear them, and even some that BELIEVE they can hear them can just be experiencing the placebo effect. 

Btw, I can't remember every headphone I did those DBX tests with, but one of the few I could consistently hear a difference in was the HE-400. Inconsistently was, coincidentally, the PX100-IIs. The M-100s, M-80s, the Momentums, 598s, TMA-1s all just didn't change. I hear more of a change from the XL pads than I heard between my personal pair and a brand new out of box pair of M-100s.
Ok now let's remind ourselves that there are TWO DIFFERENT burning going on here that always get mixed up together WHEN THEY ARE DIFFERENT.
1- BRAIN BURN
2- DRIVER BURN

BOTH EXIST APART FROM EACH OTHER!!
Quote:
Originally Posted by ratinox View Post

There was everything psychological going on. This was not a blind test. You knew before hand which was which. This introduced a bias. This bias affected your perceptions. That's entirely psychological.

Regardless of how much the mind played on influence the perception, and magnify it..
The difference was still there (!)

The human ear is the greatest living sound perceiving measuring tool..!!

Yes the mind is ALWAYS filtering the sound(!)
Like background noise disappears when your listening to someone talk or when your sleeping in a noisy place yet still awake to your name being called (like a classroom lol)
tongue.gif

Soo what can we do?
Accept your perceptions and try to realize the mind can play tricks of placebo, or focus BUT
If Placibo helps your mind enjoy that more expensive item, then it is a REAL enjoyment!!
Edited by Maxx134 - 3/15/14 at 3:41pm
post #19292 of 22850
Quote:
Originally Posted by ratinox View Post


That's a bias. You were expecting something. Therefore you perceived it. That's how human perception works. We see what we expect to see, hear what we expect to hear.

Go watch the Audio Myths Workshop video on Youtube. Really. It's worth the hour of your time.

 

Actually, what I was expecting was something that sounded like the original PX100.  If I was expecting something it was identical sound, which is not what I heard.  Why would I perceive something which was not satisfying when what I was expecting something that would satisfy me?   And why would I like what I hear now?  Does that mean that the sound the new PX100 is producing right now is actually crap, but since I'm expecting it to sound better, it does?   And  if that is the case, why did it sound like crap when it was new since I also expected it to sound good then? 

 

I think you are taking sound science to the extreme...to a point where you cannot trust your own senses.   If you keep going down that path then you will not enjoy your next slice of pizza, even if it is delicious, because you expected it to be good, therefore the perceived deliciousness is nothing but an illusion.  You will tell the restaurant owner that his pizza sucked, even if it tasted good...and the guy will chase you down the street with a dough roller...because he is Sicilian and you just insulted his honor.  :wink: 


Edited by elvergun - 3/15/14 at 3:50pm
post #19293 of 22850
I first experienced driver burn in years ago with three audio-technica es7...
Then later with three audio-technica esw9..
So I would not disagree but would accept the fact that it exists

Now over a year later of m100 burned in, by a family member,
It does not trigger my recollection and impression of it when new..
It just seems more detailed and less colorful to me.
So is that my mind?
I leave that up to you!
smily_headphones1.gif
post #19294 of 22850

Ive been powering my m-100's with my Fiio E17 for the last few weeks with 2db of treble eq'ed in using the E17 and i have to say they sound 100x better with the extra treble. They really lack detail in the treble out of the box, especailly compared to my HE-400's What i really love is the heavy bass these provide, i cant even listen to my HE-400's without EQing in 6db's of bass now lol. The XL pads help with comfort but my big ears still get sore with longer listing sessions. Overall these are my favorite cans.

post #19295 of 22850

So I dropped by AC Gears in NYC today and learned two things.

 

1) the Verza was a demo unit missing accessories so I got it for a hefty discount. And yes, it IS worth it.

 

2) The Sennheiser HD650s are my favorite headphones that aren't the M100s. Bar none. They are sublime.

post #19296 of 22850
Quote:
Originally Posted by SomeGuyDude View Post
 

So I dropped by AC Gears in NYC today and learned two things.

 

1) the Verza was a demo unit missing accessories so I got it for a hefty discount. And yes, it IS worth it.

 

2) The Sennheiser HD650s are my favorite headphones that aren't the M100s. Bar none. They are sublime.

Told you. How much was the discount?

post #19297 of 22850

20%. Not earth-shattering, but enough to make it a worthy buy for something RIGHT THERE in the store.

post #19298 of 22850
Quote:
Originally Posted by elvergun View Post

Actually, what I was expecting was something that sounded like the original PX100. If I was expecting something it was identical sound, which is not what I heard.  Why would I perceive something which was not satisfying when what I was expecting something that would satisfy me?

Confirmation bias, expectation bias, placebo effect, buyer's remorse. These all color our perceptions. We can't turn them off. We can't control them. And they have far more significant effects on our perceptions than most of us are willing to admit. Perhaps you were subconsciously anxious about the new headphones sounding like the old ones. Even if you don't believe in burn-in your brain has stored others' reports about how burn-in has changed how headphones sound -- always an improvement of course. Your brain took the impulses from the nerves in your ears and filtered them through all of your biases and the knowledge of which was which. The result is that you perceived a difference. Maybe there was one. Maybe there wasn't. That applies to hearing no differences as well. If your biases are that two different things will sound the same then they may sound the same to you even if they measure significant differences.

I trust my senses. I'd be crazy not to. But I try to keep in mind that what I see and hear and taste and smell is filtered through a lifetime's worth of experiences, that as good (or bad) as my senses are they are still subjective perceptions rather than objective measurements. I'm not exaggerating anything. Really. Go watch that video. That's real, down to earth science.
post #19299 of 22850
Quote:
Originally Posted by SomeGuyDude View Post
 

20%. Not earth-shattering, but enough to make it a worthy buy for something RIGHT THERE in the store.

See what I mean about the sound? It's just... DAMN! Btw, I'm curious what you're using it with? Since the Verza has 2 DACs and iPhones use a different DAC than Android/PC and I've only heard the Android/PC DAC.

post #19300 of 22850
Quote:
Originally Posted by SpiderNhan View Post
 

See what I mean about the sound? It's just... DAMN! Btw, I'm curious what you're using it with? Since the Verza has 2 DACs and iPhones use a different DAC than Android/PC and I've only heard the Android/PC DAC.

 

iPhone 5s and my Macbook Pro. And yeah, I definitely do. ESPECIALLY out of the iPhone. Everything is just... bigger and better. Doesn't feel like it changed anything, just amplified it (har har) beyond simply getting louder.

post #19301 of 22850
Quote:
Originally Posted by SomeGuyDude View Post
 

 

iPhone 5s and my Macbook Pro. And yeah, I definitely do. ESPECIALLY out of the iPhone. Everything is just... bigger and better. Doesn't feel like it changed anything, just amplified it (har har) beyond simply getting louder.

 

A few notes about the Verza...  One, is that the source is warmer than that of the iPhone...  The second is that it does have a 10 ohm output impedance, so if your headphone is prone to impedance changes (which isn't always a bad thing), it will change sound in that regard as well. First half is going to be subjective (but the iPhone has a warmer DAC in general, all the iDevices do except for the 1G iPod Touch, so it really comes as no surprise).  The second half has already been measured (I think Tyll measured it) and is basically backed by science :p 


Edited by tinyman392 - 3/15/14 at 6:07pm
post #19302 of 22850
Lemme turn the burn-in argument upside down. I'd like to assume that anyone selling audio gear wants it to sound its best as soon as you take it out of the box and plug it in for the first time, and they want it to sound its best for it's entire usable life. If this is a valid assumption then there are two possibilities. One is that manufacturers ship pre-burned-in gear. The other is that they do not ship pre-burned-in gear.

If the first possibility is true then user burn-in will have no effect. The burn-in process was completed before the product was put in the box. Therefore there should be no measurable differences that are not accountable to defects, damage or deterioration, all of which will have negative effects.

If the second possibility is true then there are two new possibilities. One is that burn-in has a positive effect and that every single one of them, from giant Sony to miniscule iBasso, is being stupid by shipping unfinished products that aren't their best when new owners get their hands on them. The other is that burn-in has no measurable effect and that any improvements you experience due to burn-in exist solely between your ears.

Getting back on track, deterioration is another possible reason why the two PX's sound different. The older one had deteriorated, but had deteriorated slowly enough that you didn't notice and the deteriorated sound was what you remember as good. The new, pristine headphones would sound different and since that wasn't what you remembered as good it must have been bad.
post #19303 of 22850

You do realize that tons of audio company actually prescribe burning the drivers in, right? Like, manuals for all sorts of audio products (car, home, mobile)?

post #19304 of 22850
Quote:
Originally Posted by 1031prime View Post

I got a pair of m-100 a year ago and absolutely loved it.
Am looking for another pair, an open-back one however, as I have a newborn at home and m-100 forbids me hearing the baby crying and my wife calling me (despite I only keep volume around 20).

May I ask for suggestions?
Ideally a pair with signature close to m-100, a fun can richer in bass with clear highs.
Budget is approximately same as m-100 i.e. $300

Many thanks
Maybe something like the Beyerdynamic DT series(besides the pro-series) like 250 ohm premium or the 600 ohm would be great. Which are open back.
post #19305 of 22850
Quote:
Originally Posted by SomeGuyDude View Post

You do realize that tons of audio company actually prescribe burning the drivers in, right? Like, manuals for all sorts of audio products (car, home, mobile)?

Yes, I am aware of this. But if burn-in is a real, measurable thing as these manuals suggest then why don't the manufacturers do it professionally, in-house, before installation or shipment? Why don't they make sure it's done right so that the customer's experience is "perfect" right out of the box?

On the other hand, Apple doesn't publish anything of the sort and Apple is all about the perfect experience starting with opening the box (or even sooner if you purchase at an Apple Store).

Looking objectively at these two points, I'm on the side of "myth". Burn-in mostly doesn't exist, at least not for modern electronics. Those manuals? Pure expectation bias. The manual says it'll get better. Even if you don't believe in burn-in that bit of information will bias your perceptions.
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