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magick man said:

People can and will find just about anything for a lower price, if they take their time and shop. I can get a pair HD800s for $1000, but I think that price is still too high.
 

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PM me, baby.

As much as I hate to, I have to agree. I used to say that if headphones are too expensive, then people are just not going to buy as frequently versus if they were cheaper. This is true to some extent, but I think once you pass $300 or so, you get into an interesting territory where upgrade-creep just about overpowers everything because it becomes more cost effective to pay $2000 or whatever and get the ultimate sound than to go through a chain of upgrades from $500 then $600 then $700 then $800 and so on. In other words the "ultimate" flagship listening experience can always get away with a big price premium simply because people will rather buy the best and be done with it a lot of the time.
 
BUT this may only apply to absolute flagships. For midrange headphones it may be more complex because they serve as "middle ground" to the "ultimate" listening experience. The only problem I see potentially with HD700s is, $1000 is quite a lot of money to be paying for middle ground. But I guess as long as a market exists, it can't hurt to fill it I suppose?

I guess even in the "audiophile" market most people are just as susceptible to image as the people who buy beats, the audiophile market is just after a different image and Sennheiser is on top of it.  You make a phone look high tech, create a high tech driver to back it up and a price to back it up more and a lot of people will buy it simply because it seems like the "best" headphone out there.  I wonder what portion of the people who buy HD800's have any ability to critically evaluate them on their own.  Similar to the way some folks go to art galleries and pay a lot of money for a work of art but have to check the artists name or read the bio or curator's statement before they know what they like. 
 
I'm not saying any of you are doing this, and the HD800 clearly has some guts to back up the I'm state of the art refined and serious package. 
 
What I'm saying is that, sadly, the reason companies are pricing things so high is the same reason that Beats teamed up with Dr. Dre. 
 
And it's working!  Sennheiser probably upped the price because they were selling more than they expected to.  ie demand was greater than expected so they upped the price either to bring down demand to where they wanted their supply to be, or to a more profitable ratio of quantity/profit

Speaking for myself, I never intended to ever buy a HD800.  Had a grudge against Senn for a long time.  Don't really care for the looks of the 800 and prefer the LCD2 or 009 looks by far.  I just happened to try them at a meet because they were lying around and they sounded 'meh' out of the first 4 setups I heard.  Once I really heard it I heard it and it made sense to me.  The rest is just pure function for comfort and sound reproduction IMO.  To me the HD800 is about as artful as a suppository.  Whatever, I listen to it, not stare at it.  I'd like it in all black though so it can hide itself.

> I wonder what portion of the people who buy HD800's have any ability to critically evaluate them on their own
 
Well I can't say I'm unbiased, having invested money in an HD800, but I try not to be. That said, I must say I'm enjoying these more than any headphone I've ever owned or auditioned. LCD are obviously very good but if you've seen my countless posts and complaints about the HD650 you'll notice I'm not a huge fan of the "dark" sound. For me, the HD800 is seeming to be nearly an ideal sound for me -- not to mention that the sound quality is pretty incredible.
 
Anyway the point is, while some people may buy top tier headphones for the image, I honestly think quite a lot of people (myself included) do so only for sound quality (and comfort). Being totally honest here -- nobody is going to stare at me through my window and admire me wearing HD800s in my room. I'm not going to wear them outside. They're not to look "cool" except perhaps for my own admiration, if that. They're purely for my musical enjoyment, and at that they do a very very good job so far.

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anaxilus said:

Speaking for myself, I never intended to ever buy a HD800.  Had a grudge against Senn for a long time. 

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Whyy??
 

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ac500 said:

As much as I hate to, I have to agree. I used to say that if headphones are too expensive, then people are just not going to buy as frequently versus if they were cheaper. This is true to some extent, but I think once you pass $300 or so, you get into an interesting territory where upgrade-creep just about overpowers everything because it becomes more cost effective to pay $2000 or whatever and get the ultimate sound than to go through a chain of upgrades from $500 then $600 then $700 then $800 and so on. In other words the "ultimate" flagship listening experience can always get away with a big price premium simply because people will rather buy the best and be done with it a lot of the time.
 
BUT this may only apply to absolute flagships. For midrange headphones it may be more complex because they serve as "middle ground" to the "ultimate" listening experience. The only problem I see potentially with HD700s is, $1000 is quite a lot of money to be paying for middle ground. But I guess as long as a market exists, it can't hurt to fill it I suppose?

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 Will be very interesting to see how Shure fair with their awkwardly priced 1440 and 1840 ~ It will hit the shelves here in Australia for just under
 $500AUD for the 1440 and $850AUD for the 1840 - it's 'no man's land' pricing in my mind, certainly no slight against the headphones themselves
 but $850 for a 1840 begs the question ~ is $1200AUD in the mind of a prospective buyer only that little bit further?
 
 I think $500 separates most Head-Fiers, not so much in terms of wallet but in will ~ sometimes quite sensible will of restraint 

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anaxilus said:

 
 

Wait, if the price is TOO artificially high then people WONT pay it.  But as they do, the prices stay there or even go up depending on the sales figures.  Rythmdevils is spot on IMHO.  Look at the LCD3 @ $2K a pop.  Even with various QC issues they seem to be flying like hotcakes around here.
 

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Right, if the price is too high, people won't pay for it--price fixing or not.  And, in the end, the market probably sorts that out.  Your argument (and Rythmdevils's) falls in line with proponents of vertical price fixing--there are plenty of supporters.  However, just because something sells does not mean the price is not artificially inflated.  It would be interesting to see what would happen if Senn let its dealers compete.  I would be extremely surprised if prices didn't go down, but I suppose it's possible they would not.  I'm very curious to see if the various states with laws against such practices will take heed. 
 

 
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the monkey said:

Right, if the price is too high, people won't pay for it--price fixing or not.  And, in the end, the market probably sorts that out.  Your argument (and Rythmdevils's) falls in line with proponents of vertical price fixing--there are plenty of supporters.  However, just because something sells does not mean the price is not artificially inflated.  It would be interesting to see what would happen if Senn let its dealers compete.  I would be extremely surprised if prices didn't go down, but I suppose it's possible they would not.  I'm very curious to see if the various states with laws against such practices will take heed. 

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I won't comment about (or for) any specific manufacturer, but will offer a strictly personal observation/opinion: Before the Leegin decision, it seemed to me there was less enforcement of MAP (or RPM pricing), and, as a result, almost every headphone under the sun was available from discounters like eCost for prices often far below what other dealers (particularly smaller specialty dealers) were offering. After the Leegin decision, a lot changed. Subsequent rulings seem to vary from state to state, but outcomes like the Tempur-Pedic one may further clarify definitions, etc., with respect to this. In short, even on a state level, it seems to me that subsequent decisions regarding this are mixed, and more clarity is needed. But it's clear to me that Leegin clearly opened up stricter enforcement of MAP than I ever saw before it.
 
Obviously, headphones aren't the only place you see MAP enforced. Try buying a current-model Patagonia, The North Face, or Mountain Hardwear jacket at a discount anywhere.
 
What do I think of MAP? I think without some form of RPM, full-service specialty dealers don't stand much of a chance. I've seen the argument that dealers then simply have to learn to differentiate themselves other than by price. On the web? Good luck with that.
 
Just to be clear: I'm not a lawyer or legal professional, in case it wasn't already obvious.
 
Anyway, let's get this thread back on topic please.
 
 

jax said:

...Jude's description of the 700's seem hopeful in some ways, yet it seems like the sibilance issue that he mentions might indicate not entirely.  Still the qualities described do sound very appealing to me.

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The HD 700's the group of us heard were pre-production, and I expect there may be changes. Will there be any changes to what I commented on, with respect to sibilance spotlighting? Perhaps. I'm going to wait to hear a production HD 700, and let you know when I do.
 
I still have the pre-production HD 700 here, and it is, overall, an outstanding headphone (and my opinions expressed in the first post of this thread still stand).

logwed said:

PM me, baby.

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Local dealer and long time customer, I do IT work on the side. It's a one time, "let me hook you up", kind of thing. I'm positive that he's not in the habit of doing such things, and I'm sure as heck not going to get him in trouble. It's how he pays me for the work I do, and how I got my B&W speakers for cost, back in the day.

Anyway, back on track...

I'm going to give the HD700s a listen, but as ac500 said, if they're already $900-1000 why wouldn't I just go ahead and shoot for the best from Sennheiser?

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I'm going to give the HD700s a listen, but as ac500 said, if they're already $900-1000 why wouldn't I just go ahead and shoot for the best from Sennheiser?

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Yes especially when you can get the HD800 for $1100 in "used, like new" condition. As the HD800 seems to be uber-reliable (at least in comparison to the top-flight planars), missing out on the 2-year warranty is almost a non-issue.

I do find it interesting that the HD700 is rated at 150 ohms, while all their other high-dollar headphones (HD580, 600, 650, 800) are rated at 300 ohms.

Anax- yeah actually that sentence about "I'm not saying any of you are doing this" was targeted at you mostly.  But also at head-fi in general, which is a very limited sample of "audiophiles".  The people here are the most individually critical since we're all sitting here discussing the stupid things. 
 
ac500- you don't realize how deep or infectious or pervasive image is.  I'm not simply talking about how it makes you look.  I'm talking about what forms your opinion of the headphone.  Check out my example of the art gallery.  Our opinions are formed by a long list of things only one of which is our own perception and evaluation and feeling.  Different people are different but most people are more affected by it than they think they are, and if you don't realize how pervasive it is, you probably are too.  And heck, a lot of it is good.  We are social beings, not hermits (except for Ted Kazinski) and to a certain extent, we all group-think.  A huge percentage of the things people do or buy are used in the exact way you use your HD800 and are done/bought because of image and branding.  If it wasn't so successful than our world would look and feel very very different. 
 
All I'm saying is that the price is not just for profit, but also part of a calculated campaign to generate a certain image.  I think we all agree about that.  And I bet a lot of us are more influenced by price than we'd like to think.  But clearly not all of us are. 
 
Sorry Jude, I just wanted to respond to those two posts.  I'll put a picture of the HD700 here to help bring it back. 
 

They are sexy but I don't listen to music staring at myself though and it's not like I'll ever want to pay that much for headphones. 
(We all say that at first I guess  After all, I never thought I'd see myself buying the 300$ Beyers 6 months after buying the 30$ Superluxes. )
 
Still curious as to what they will sound like though, but I've never tried the HD800 either. 

kalston said:

They are sexy but I don't listen to music staring at myself though and it's not like I'll ever want to pay that much for headphones. 
(We all say that at first I guess  After all, I never thought I'd see myself buying the 300$ Beyers 6 months after buying the 30$ Superluxes. )

Still curious as to what they will sound like though, but I've never tried the HD800 either. 

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Quite right, the HD700 isn't rich enough for your blood. Another ten fold increase would be $3000, not merely $1000! Time for a pair of Stax O2s to fit the bill.