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Schiit Lyr - The tube rolling thread

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Jun 17, 2013 at 9:22 PM Post #7,726 of 8,735
Hey everybody!
 
As promised, here are the Tube ID Tips from the fine folks at TubeMonger:
 
"If you have handled enough tubes over time, you should be able to id a tube manufacturer and even vintage by just looking at the picture. Glass bottle, curvature on the top, internal construction, pins and glass interface give a lot of cues.

If you don't physical access to a lot of tubes, spend time online examining pictures. For example, search for Amperex or Siemens or Telefunken and see various tube types made by a single maker. You will start to recognize the bottle and internal construction. Over time, you should be able to id mis-identified, mislabeled and even recently printed fakes. Good places to start:
- ebay
- various tube sellers that have pictures
- www.tubemongerlib.com
- http://www.radiomuseum.org/tubes/tube_cv2492.html
- http://www.r-type.org/exhib/aai0011.htm

Some tips:
- Saucer shaped getter - Russian

- Amperex/Philips tubes with different labels are identical if the revision and date codes are similar. Green, Orange, Globe or Bugle Boy labels don't mean much.

- Western European made E88CC/6922/CV2492/2493/E88CC-01 and E188CC/7308/CV4108/CV4110 always have gold plated pins - exception CV4109 flying leads.

- SQ or PQ - these are select special quality tubes culled from the regular production.

- Valvo rote-red or blue/yellow etc (hamburg made or sourced from Philips/Holland) - http://www.audioasylum.com/cgi/t.mpl?f=tubes&m=133875

- Tubes with Military markings e.g. UN-CEP, CV2492, CV2493, CV4108, CV4110, E88CC_01, CV4109 etc - have passed specific military qualification for that tube type. For example - http://www.tubemongerlib.com/gallery2/v/6922/Amperex+Philips+6922+1964-65+Halo+Getter+USN-CEP+Label+-+USA.jpg.html

- Instrumentation grade tubes made for Beckman, HP or Tektronix etc. e.g. http://www.tubemongerlib.com/gallery2/v/6DJ8/Mullard+ECC88+6DJ8+1976+A-Frame+Dimple+Disc+Getter+Orange+Globe+Amperex+Label+Tektronix+Select+-+Blackburn+Gt_+Britain.jpg.html

- Late 1950s onwards - Philips/Mullard and tubes from associated Philips factories worldwide always have etched date codes on side of the glass. Codes may be faint or hard to see. Good light and magnifying glass helps. Notive VR5 *4x in the following picture. :http://www.tubemongerlib.com/gallery2/v/7308/Amperex+Philips+7308+1964+Halo+Getter+HP+Label+VR5+Star4I+-+USA+.jpg.html. VR stands for tube type E188CC/7308 and 5 stands for 5th revision. * is for Amperex Armonk USA plant.

- early to mid 1950s Philips/Mullard and tubes from associated Philips factories worldwide may have date codes etched at the bottom between pins. Example: http://www.tubemongerlib.com/gallery2/v/6922/Amperex+Philips+E88CC+6922+-+1956+Pinched+Waist+Square+Getter+Heerlen+Holland+Prod+Mullard+Old+Shield+Label.jpg.html

- dimple disk getter - Philips/Mullard and tubes from associated Philips factories worldwide except USA

- 1950s-1960s Siemens Munich Plant tubes have date codes etched in glass. From 1970s codes were embossed on a metal chad attached to the getter posts or plate supports.

- Tungsram Hungarian tubes have metal tag with 2 digit embossed code attached to getter posts or plate supports.

- For West German tubes in particular - Falcon or Eagle logo means tube have passed Bundeswehr military qualification e.g. http://www.tubemongerlib.com/gallery2/v/EF86/Telefunken+PCC88+1968+Bundeswehr+Falcon+Logo+Diamond+Bottom+-+Western+Germany.jpg.html. Watch out for fake  falcon/eagle logo on recently printed tubes of E. European origin (exception - Tungsram tubes with Siemens logo with falcon/eagle are OK).


Shall add more to the above list in future.


Tubemonger
www.tubemonger.com

For your tube ID Questions
www.tubemongerlib.com"
 
Hope this helps...
 
Cheers!
beerchug.gif

-HK sends
 
Jun 17, 2013 at 9:37 PM Post #7,727 of 8,735
Quote:
ilikepooters said:
 
Voskhod 6N23P's are the flavour of the week at the moment.
 
I have orange label Amperex PQ 6DJ8 made in Holland in the 70's so i'm guessing these are pretty much a glorified orange globe, and i think the Voskhod 6N23P's blow them out of the water, the Russians just sound so much more open while having a similar tone.
 
Deffinitely worth having a look if you get the chance, especially at how peanuts the prices are for Russian glass.
Click to expand...

 
 
I'm not sure it's ever safe to assume too much with regard to the relationship between tubes within a manufacturer's line.  
 
The Orange Globes are highly regarded almost universally, while the Orange Labels, to the best of my knowledge, are not as universally lauded.
 
NB:  I have only heard one pair of the Orange Labels, so I'm by no means an expert, but I wasn't knocked out.
 
So I wouldn't assume that the Orange Labels are a "glorified orange globe".  
 
Jun 17, 2013 at 9:38 PM Post #7,728 of 8,735
Quote:
sceleratus said:
Thought I'd post an FYI for anyone in the Los Angeles area.
There will be a "Regional Meet" Sat. July 20th at the Woodland Hills Marriott  (San Fernando Valley)
 
There are a lot of folks registered.
Schiit, Audeze, and other manufacturers will be there.
Click to expand...

That should be awesome!  
 
Jun 17, 2013 at 9:38 PM Post #7,729 of 8,735
Quote:
bsn said:
 
I think it's high time we ask Jason Stoddard for a "Special Head-Fi Edition" Lyr.  It would feature two sets of tube sockets that can always supply heater current to both banks and a soft A/B switch to select the tubes in bank A or B.  
bigsmile_face.gif

 
Well, we  can always dream.
Click to expand...

That would be worth every penny! 
 
Jun 17, 2013 at 9:52 PM Post #7,730 of 8,735
I haven't heard Orange Globes, but my experience with Orange Labels was not great. For what it's worth, Joe on Audio Asylum described the Orange Globe as a killer tube, and he described the Orange Label as a bit disappointing.
 
Jun 17, 2013 at 11:49 PM Post #7,731 of 8,735
Jun 18, 2013 at 9:08 AM Post #7,734 of 8,735
Quote:
ilikepooters said:
 
It's hard to tell from that picture, shields are hardly visible, but from what little bit i can see i would say yes, looks a bit silvery rather than grey.
 
 
I've not tried the 6N1P-EV, but if they're the same sonically as the standard Voskhod 6N1P, then i would say the 6N23P Voskhods have a more lush midrange and a massive soundstage.
 
 
These aren't just the bog standard orange labels, they are PQ shield.
 
There are orange label tubes without the globe or the shield, i think those would be the ones you're referring to.
Click to expand...

 
Perhaps, but I've never heard of ANY Orange Label that was considered to even be as good as the Orange Globes, let alone to be "glorified" Orange Globes.
 
For some reason, every so often, the planets all aligned and certain models of tubes had magic that other tubes didn't.
 
This happened with tubes like certain models of Bugle Boys, Orange Globes, Pinched Waist 6922, Stuttgart Lorenz, Siemens CCa, and a few other tubes.
 
Even the guys who made tubes weren't sure why this happened sometimes and not other times.  I'm sure they had some inkling, but if they knew exactly how to make tubes with the magic they'd do it every time. 
 
If you think the Orange Labels you've heard sound better than Orange Globes, I'm not in any position to argue, I've heard more Orange Globes than I've heard Orange Labels.   And it would probably be a good idea for you to hang on to those tubes.
 
But Orange Labels aren't generally considered to be "glorified Orange Globes".
 
Jun 18, 2013 at 10:55 AM Post #7,735 of 8,735
Jun 18, 2013 at 11:22 AM Post #7,739 of 8,735
Quote:
nightflight said:
Impresssion: Siemens Cca Grey plate vs Voshkod '83 silver

The Voskod is a fantastic bargain. Can be currently be found on ebay for as little as $5 - 7 each whereas the Siemens ranges from around $120 - $250each.. or more. Sonically they are both very revealing with similar soundstage. The Voshkod in fact might actually have a slightly taller stage.


A) Voshkod
Coming from a Siemens love relationship I was initially very very impressed by the Voshkod.  It presents with an immediacy and space that immediately entices you to close your eyes, lean back and absorb. Slightly more punchy in the mid bass region, but otherwise just as tight and airy as any tube I've heard to date. Placement and 3 dimensions are evident in spades.  Some recordings can catch you off guard and get  you to looking around for the source of the exterior noise you thought were external to the headphone.  

B) Siemens CCa
Reality sets in and all the detail you didn't believe possible comes out. Not quite as punchy mid bass, but tighter. Highs are lighter and squarely placed as thought by laser beam. There's no need to concentrate on where things are, they just are. The detail is thus far in my experience, unparalleled.  Perhaps too analytical for some. But I don't quite understand that limit yet. I haven't found it.

Summary
The Voshkod is no slouch. I've only given them 50hrs break in and they might yet open further. They are still a bargain and they do very well. If your just looking for some really good tunes on the cheap, these are the ones to get. However for me, audiophillia is about that last %1.  You "buy the ticket, take the ride".  The difference between these two tubes can be summed up as a difference one would perceive between the $20 interconnects and $5000 interconnects. There IS a difference and for some people it will slap them in the face, but not others. People with an untrained ear mostly would not notice any difference. Those that did would not value it.  

Will I be selling my CCa tubes? I had really really hoped to. I really did.  But I'll have to quote the NRA.
 
"You can have my Siemens when you take them from my cold, dead hands". 
 
There is a reason they are as expensive as they are. They are rare is the primary reason, but the other is because they are awesome.  It will be a very sad day when they die and their all gone.

In the end, the Voshkod are cheap. Give them a try. What's the worst that could happen?
Click to expand...


Good review!  Thanks! 
 
When I originally bought the Voshkods, I did a very long evaluation vs my Siemens CCa collection.
 
I agree with your review  of the S&H Gray shields vs the Voshkods, they are marginally better.  The later date code S&H silver shields could not hold a candle to either.   For me the cost difference was not worth it - keep in mind, I'm running 3 prs.  A pr in the Lyr and a pr each in my amps - so the cost for 3 prs is crazy.
The fact the $10 Voshkods could even compete is amazing.
 
 
You have to weigh how the money difference could buy you a better: DAC/transport, improve your Music server, better cables, better headphone, etc...
 
For me it's all about the best sound, overall, for the money.  Each part of the audio chain is important.
 
If I only had unlimited funds - there would 'Pinch Waists' in all my equipment...but then again I'd probably have a Woo WES/Stax SR-009 or Senn Orpheus.
 
Enjoy your CCa!  At least you have the V-Rockets as back-up.
 
I have some 1975 silver V-Rockets coming.  I'll report how they sound vs the 1979s I have, which are better then the 1980s.  I'm also sending a few prs to a friend for his special Cryo tube treatment.  In the past this has improved new issue tubes by a decent margin.
 
Jun 18, 2013 at 11:47 AM Post #7,740 of 8,735
Quote:
ilikepooters said:
 
Grid and shield are Different
 
There are some 6N1P tubes which have a gold grid as can be seen below, basically it's just gold particles sprinkled on.

 
Silver grid is just standard i imagine, no gold, or maybe they sprinkle on actual silver instead.
 
The shield is the bit that sticks up slightly between the 2 triodes, directly underneath the getter.
These are my Voskhod 6N23P's.
 

 

 
 
Hope that's cleared up the Silver grid/shield.
 
Oh and one more, you can also have a small silver shield as well on the Voskhod 6N23P.
 
Click to expand...

 
 
 
 
 
 
 
Thanks for the clarification on the grid.   Well in my collection, there are some with the gray shield and that have the grid - one side silver one side gray, these were in my 1979 batch.  In my later date codes 1980s the gray shield had a grid gray on both sides!
 
When I did my listening test it was between the early 1980s and later 1980s and 1990s date codes.  I compared based on the 'shields', not grids. In all cases the silver  'shields' were best. The 1979 Silver shields are the best sounding so far, with 1975s on their way.
 
I will have to go through the rest of my growing collection.
 
 
1979 Silver shield vs 1979 Gray shield

 
 
The other side of the same tubes - on this side both have silver grids!

 
 
Same 1979 tubes - hard to see with the print but one side of the grid is gray (on the gray shield version), this side of the grid is silver on the silver shield.

 
 
I would be careful buying based on the grid, as there appears to be different variations on the gray shield versions.  You can be fooled by a picture of only one side.
 
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