Shure 535 can be improved by replacing the cables! - Page 2

Well, doesn't the material used to make the cable change the resistance of the cable, and then change the sound ?

Isn't this the way the S to P converter from etymotics work ?

Cables DO make a difference especially on the TF10. I came from the TF10 with lune cables and yes, it's a very significant difference switching from Stock to Athena Cables to Lune Cables.

And yes we concurred at meets and we did blind tests as well. If you guys havent tried the Lune cables then you're sorely mistaken when it comes to cables not making a difference

However I do not believe that the Silver Cables increase the bass since it should lessen the bass and bring out the highs and mids more. 

I don't know how the SM3 came into the conversation but yes it has significantly more bass than the SE535 but it's a different presentation than the Shures. Same as the UM3x where you should experience more bass than the Shures.

The SE530/535 have decent bass, but nowhere near the bassier top tiers imo. If you were looking for bass you picked the wrong iems bud

I tried the highly praised " TWag " cables and they didn't change a thing even after the 300 hour recommend burn in time which I found hilarious. Cables need burn in now?

imho, everything affects.. otherwise a cheap $10 iem with same shape would simply sound as good as a $100 iem..

things just doesnt happen that way tho.

for me, cables does affects. housing too, drivers, vents, materials, etc. the important point is how they all add up to make the changes. every little bit counts. changing just one element will not change the overall sounding, in this case the cable. it will surely have an effect, but there's 3 problem here. what is affected? can the effect be heard? and most important; does the listener knows what kind of difference to look for?

I would say it's simply the 3rd issue for non cable believer. they are looking for something specific. but what if the difference isnt specific? what if the cable affects the whole spectrum? not just bass, mids, treble, etc? what if it doesnt even affect the frequency response? how would you know where the effect is? soundstage? energy? speed? impact? focus? tone? distance? width? depth? decay? impulse? dynamics?

even when doing online test. we see a lot of variation from people able to tell and not able to tell the difference between 2 tone, 2 pitch, 2 octave, or heck, even 2 notes.

there's just too many things that can affect the presentation of a music, and the effect will only be more obvious in subtle and delicate music. that's why orchestral music is always being used by people who reviews speakers, they dont review rock, metal, hip hop, etc.

Quote:

Originally Posted by weili 

Well, doesn't the material used to make the cable change the resistance of the cable, and then change the sound ?

Isn't this the way the S to P converter from etymotics work ?

The only decent argument in this entire conversation, and while you are right in that sense, if you look at the frequency graphs (headroom.com, build a frequency graph) of the ER4P and ER4S their frequency response is identical, just shifted up or down by a few DB. Changing resistance changes volume across the board, not "boosts bass" or "cuts treble" or "increases soundstage". And the adapter affects the resistance because there is a resistor inside meant specifically to change its resistance. Silver to copper cables on the other hand, have about a (correct me if I'm wrong) 7% conductivity difference, and when you work it out into resistance that is too minimal to affect anything. And after a certain point the resistance of the cable does not matter if all the information is being transmitted clearly (as how a 12awg cable and an 18awg cable on your IEMs would make absolutely no audible difference whatsoever), so I'm sure the stock cable has been designed such that the resistance it offers does not detract from the soundquality.

how can 7% be considered minimal when hifi equipments measures THD (thermal harmonic distortion) down to a value of 0.00x.. or less?

7% will be like 100times a lot more.

what about having a 10kHz signal going through that 7% difference.. wouldnt that amplify the 7% 10000 to some huge difference?

its also a fact that our iem uses very small drivers.. 8mm dynamics, what about BA drivers? 1mm? for that small size, the movement of the drivers would be even more minute. wont a 0.001 resistance gives a relative huge difference? would it not affect the movement of the drivers by 0.001mm and affects the bass? bass drivers are usually long throw drivers, but in relative size, 0.001mm difference on a 1mm diaphgram is still considerably a large movement.
 

Quote:

Originally Posted by Nightslayer 

The only decent argument in this entire conversation, and while you are right in that sense, if you look at the frequency graphs (headroom.com, build a frequency graph) of the ER4P and ER4S their frequency response is identical, just shifted up or down by a few DB. Changing resistance changes volume across the board, not "boosts bass" or "cuts treble" or "increases soundstage". And the adapter affects the resistance because there is a resistor inside meant specifically to change its resistance. Silver to copper cables on the other hand, have about a (correct me if I'm wrong) 7% conductivity difference, and when you work it out into resistance that is too minimal to affect anything. And after a certain point the resistance of the cable does not matter if all the information is being transmitted clearly (as how a 12awg cable and an 18awg cable on your IEMs would make absolutely no audible difference whatsoever), so I'm sure the stock cable has been designed such that the resistance it offers does not detract from the soundquality.

Quote:

Originally Posted by DaEMoNteNTAcLe 

how can 7% be considered minimal when hifi equipments measures THD (thermal harmonic distortion) down to a value of 0.00x.. or less?

7% will be like 100times a lot more.

what about having a 10kHz signal going through that 7% difference.. wouldnt that amplify the 7% 10000 to some huge difference?

 

its also a fact that our iem uses very small drivers.. 8mm dynamics, what about BA drivers? 1mm? for that small size, the movement of the drivers would be even more minute. wont a 0.001 resistance gives a relative huge difference? would it not affect the movement of the drivers by 0.001mm and affects the bass? bass drivers are usually long throw drivers, but in relative size, 0.001mm difference on a 1mm diaphgram is still considerably a large movement.
 

 

No. Read full post before commenting. With relevance to last sentence (:

Also, when your ears start hearing 30kHz and 0.001 variations in THD then perhaps cable material might make a difference? Perhaps. I will not venture into areas I am unfamiliar with theoretically.

I have an issue with those that look at specs and say 'no it can't'. Even if you listened to a cable and didn't notice a difference, there's other variables so you may not have gotten the whole picture. Unless you've heard every cable, you can't tell somebody that they didn't hear a difference. It's like proving a negative. On paper, I agree that the amount of resistance, inductance, impedance reflections or capacitance in an LOD should be rather meaningless (even with a highish output impedance) but I've heard a lot of odder things in audio and I know that cables sound different, for me, though I can't say for this application as I have never tried. Not that expensive or silver is in any way a direct relation to better but with good enough source, which is a huge issue for most consumers, and kit, I think most would get it. If you don't, that still doesn't mean that your wrong or I am, just that you get to where you want easier and likely cheaper. In this app of a long cable, I personally think a difference is possible. Has anyone considered that perhaps the connectors used on the a new cable are better and it's a place that can make a difference on paper. Better damped from electrically induced vibes, etc? It's not always the wire.

I remember when a computer tos out to an asrc jitter filtered DAC was touted to be as good as it could possibly be and frankly it was crap compared to other solutions available at the time like JET tech but ignored because almost all believed that bits are bits and what they read in computer audiophile that's since come around nicely. The truth is often a moving target unless you've got a lot of resources and experience to form an opinion. Generally more than any consumer has at their disposal. Opinions are great but lets leave it at what they are. The whole prove it thing is way over the top on the message boards. All pretty much now accept that tos out is less good than USD or 1394 but if you measure the analog result, the differences should also be inaudible but few would currently argue same.

I could see certain cables changing the frequency response. It would depend on the materials used as well as the cable thickness and the type of shielding. Here are schematics for a high-pass and low-pass filter:

Basically, the capacitor acts as a resistance that has a different value depending on the frequency of the signal going through it. That's its impedance at a given frequency. Resistors have a constant impedance over all frequencies. These filters are essentially what are used to buld crossovers. The reason why the P-S filter changes the frequency response of the ER-4 is probably because it increases the value of the resistance (R) in the lowpass filter schematic on the right, assuming their crossover isn't much more complex.

Now, the first possibility is that the aftermarket cable has a different resistance than the stock one, which would change the crossover point. Most cables have extremely low resistances though (a few milliohms compared to a few hundred or thousand ohms in the crossover), so the difference should be negligeable. However, cables will certainly have a difference amount of capacitance based on their construction. Here's why:

The image one the left represents a cross-section from a single-channel cable, and the one on the right is a capacitor. They essentially have the same construction of two conductors with an isolator (or dielectric) in between. This creates what is called a parasitic capacitance that's usually extremely low. Coupled with the cable's resistance (also very low) and the crossover elements inside the IEM, you could maybe shift the existing crossover point, or introduce a lowpass, which would increase the amount of bass compared to highs. I'm actually not 100% sure about the parasitic capacity's effect on the frequency response but it's certainly another possibility that it changes the sound slightly, and that the effect of a given cable will be different depending on the IEM it's matched with.

There's not enough of that there to cause enough change in the audio band for the impedances we're generally discussing so I understand the scepticism but there's other things like ringing, resonance, dynamic noise and reflections that may have some significance. Resistance should also not be a significant contributor unless it's at a connection. The problem with claiming no difference can exist is that it's inductive and not deductive.

never understood how cables can alter sound, can anybody explain to me in plain earthly language how its done? my understanding is that the cable delivers the signal but does not alter it, in regards to this the cable at most could make the signal cleaner if its of better quality thus maybe reduce distortion slightly, yet still not altering the signal sent down the cable, now the actual part changing that signal to sound ( the driver ) can alter the sound in many ways ofcourse.

wheres the science to back the claims up? so far all i have seen is people spending stupid money on fancy looking cables and then claiming they always make them better why not ever worse? you think just because they cost more they must be better?