I heard the universals of the K10 and the Roxanne and preferred the Roxanne. Although I heard reviews of how Roxanne was extremely dark, to my surprise, it wasn't. When the bass knob is turned to the minimum, it sounds quite neutral. I had my UERM with me and they sounded similar. Both K10 and Roxanne sounded slightly more refined. Roxanne had really nice imaging, and the details were quite obviously better. I was able to hear details I haven't heard, and was able to position certain instruments in music that I couldn't before. This still wasn't possible on the K10. Though the sense of space (and the black background) in both IEMs seems worse than the UERM, possibly because mine was a custom. The memorable impressions of K10 was that it was very smooth and refined, and was comfortable to listen to. The memorable impressions of the Roxanne was that it is extremely technically capable, yet wasn't fatiguing. Resolution and imaging was very good. 

project86 said:

  The market is growing and I suspect Westone found themselves looking at the popularity of stuff like Tralucent and FutureSonics (cheap components selling for high prices) and wishing they had a similar profit structure. 

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I didn't take offence with what you said; I was just clarifying, that's all 
 
 
But, as for Futuresonics.... just don't get me started! 

xymordos said:

I heard the universals of the K10 and the Roxanne and preferred the Roxanne. Although I heard reviews of how Roxanne was extremely dark, to my surprise, it wasn't. When the bass knob is turned to the minimum, it sounds quite neutral. I had my UERM with me and they sounded similar. Both K10 and Roxanne sounded slightly more refined. Roxanne had really nice imaging, and the details were quite obviously better. I was able to hear details I haven't heard, and was able to position certain instruments in music that I couldn't before. This still wasn't possible on the K10. Though the sense of space (and the black background) in both IEMs seems worse than the UERM, possibly because mine was a custom. The memorable impressions of K10 was that it was very smooth and refined, and was comfortable to listen to. The memorable impressions of the Roxanne was that it is extremely technically capable, yet wasn't fatiguing. Resolution and imaging was very good. 

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Appreciate the impressions good stuff

shotgunshane said:

 
I'd like to request a comparison with the Viento-R when you publish either review.  Both of these are something I'm considering but there can only be one.

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I may have to depending on how the Fusion 11 performs, ultimately.  I would give the Viento-R the advantage in detail and articulation, and the spatial presentations are different, but by how much I don't yet know.  If you want a quick, specific comparisons, I can do so...
 

project86 said:

  I agree completely. Sorry if I came off as defensive.... that wasn't my intent at all. I was a big fan not only of the ES5 sound but also the pricing which seemed more on the sane side compared to JH13 and UE18. So I too am curious about the increase, but not really surprised to see it. 
 
The market is growing and I suspect Westone found themselves looking at the popularity of stuff like Tralucent and FutureSonics (cheap components selling for high prices) and wishing they had a similar profit structure. 
 
I also wonder about their ES50. It's $1149 and I wonder what (if anything) has changed from the ES5. And also how it compares to their ES60. 

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The ES50 is the exact same as the ES5, except they changed the connector and added artwork options.  As far as the comment on Tralucent, I guess it depends on the skill of the artist (the person doing the tuning).  A Picasso cost much more than a painting from a random artist even if they use the same canvas and paint
 

xymordos said:

  I heard the universals of the K10 and the Roxanne and preferred the Roxanne. Although I heard reviews of how Roxanne was extremely dark, to my surprise, it wasn't. When the bass knob is turned to the minimum, it sounds quite neutral. I had my UERM with me and they sounded similar. Both K10 and Roxanne sounded slightly more refined. Roxanne had really nice imaging, and the details were quite obviously better. I was able to hear details I haven't heard, and was able to position certain instruments in music that I couldn't before. This still wasn't possible on the K10. Though the sense of space (and the black background) in both IEMs seems worse than the UERM, possibly because mine was a custom. The memorable impressions of K10 was that it was very smooth and refined, and was comfortable to listen to. The memorable impressions of the Roxanne was that it is extremely technically capable, yet wasn't fatiguing. Resolution and imaging was very good. 

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Thanks for the impressions.  I hope to some day hear both...

average_joe said:

   A Picasso cost much more than a painting from a random artist even if they use the same canvas and paint
 

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But Picasso didn't make the same painting twice

piotrus-g said:

  But Picasso didn't make the same painting twice

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True, but to this day, people still buy copies and pay to see the real thing!  Once you perfected the H8, you started making copies of your masterpiece

Why the lower volume I listen to music with, the larger the soundstage becomes?
 
Is it related to the power output of DAP/DAC or the impedance of the CIEM? I feel at lower volume, I can also hear more treble detail with faster speed. So I guess lower end frequencies put out more energy than treble frequencies with a small increasing volume step? Or the impedance of CIEM needs to receive a certain level of power to produce stable sound？Or It could be due to hearing issue? 

tupac0306 said:

  Why the lower volume I listen to music with, the larger the soundstage becomes?
 
Is it related to the power output of DAP/DAC or the impedance of the CIEM? I feel at lower volume, I can also hear more treble detail with faster speed. So I guess lower end frequencies put out more energy than treble frequencies with a small increasing volume step? Or the impedance of CIEM needs to receive a certain level of power to produce stable sound？Or It could be due to hearing issue? 

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Read up on "equal loudness contour". The average ear tends to be more sensitive at certain frequencies - the upper mids around 4 or 5kHz being the most sensitive, and sub bass tending to be the least sensitive. 
 
Not sure exactly how this translates to soundstage.... everyone is slightly different, and perhaps as the bass (perceptually) decreases and those upper mids stand out more, it manifests as soundstage and detail. 

project86 said:

   
 
Read up on "equal loudness contour". The average ear tends to be more sensitive at certain frequencies - the upper mids around 4 or 5kHz being the most sensitive, and sub bass tending to be the least sensitive. 
 
Not sure exactly how this translates to soundstage.... everyone is slightly different, and perhaps as the bass (perceptually) decreases and those upper mids stand out more, it manifests as soundstage and detail. 

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This is why a neutral headphone should not output a flat response.I once saw an acoustic damper response and the dB drop resembled the equal loudness contour. 

tupac0306 said:

  Why the lower volume I listen to music with, the larger the soundstage becomes?
 
Is it related to the power output of DAP/DAC or the impedance of the CIEM? I feel at lower volume, I can also hear more treble detail with faster speed. So I guess lower end frequencies put out more energy than treble frequencies with a small increasing volume step? Or the impedance of CIEM needs to receive a certain level of power to produce stable sound？Or It could be due to hearing issue? 

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That makes sense.  Your CIEM FR is being skewed more as more power is applied.  CIEM impedance is skewy and most likely the skew will be more in affect as more power is applied.  Based on what you are discribing, I can almost visualize the impedance curve.  Treble's impedance lowering loudness as more power is applied.  It's got to be the impedance characteristic.  I'd like to see the impedance characteristic of that CIEM you are referring to.
 
I have no clue what causes the sound stage on the CIEMs(maybe somebody has a precise explaination for this?).  The pattern I notice is that source with higher supply provides larger stage and dynamics.  Desktop sources with 0 output impedance does better than portable.  Portables typically sound flat to me except the AK240 which I've heard has a capacitors to output more current which could maybe explain the wider stage and dynamics of it's presentation.

tupac0306 said:

  Why the lower volume I listen to music with, the larger the soundstage becomes?
 
Is it related to the power output of DAP/DAC or the impedance of the CIEM? I feel at lower volume, I can also hear more treble detail with faster speed. So I guess lower end frequencies put out more energy than treble frequencies with a small increasing volume step? Or the impedance of CIEM needs to receive a certain level of power to produce stable sound？Or It could be due to hearing issue? 

Click to expand...

I get pretty much the opposite. soundstage crumbles when I'm listening at low volume levels and in effect listening to a clip+ becomes almost the same as listening to some high end gears. when at "normal" levels, the clip+ keeps a somehow small soundstage, and better amps "open up" or sound like they do to me.
at lower volume you lose both the bass and the top end progressively. that is due to our ears not the IEM(fletcher munson blahblahblah). maybe some IEMs or some sources have the troubles you mention, but just our ears will turn a flat IEM into a mid centered one while lowering the volume. so I would agree with the faster speed as we lose the sub bass the overall sound seems faster and bass better controlled somehow if we don't look to much into it. but I certainly lose trebles as fast as I lose bass when lowering the volume control(maybe that's because I'm not so young).  and at one point on any sources, the soudnstage just becomes a blob to me. it's very disappointing as I really enjoy listen quietly otherwise.

Thanks guys for the input. I tried it with my Anedio D2 which has like 0.0 something output impedance and the same thing happens. Should be something to do with my hearing I guess. 

tupac0306 said:

  Should be something to do with my hearing I guess. 

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Actually, the accurate technical reason for your findings is that it's because you listen to rap music.
 
ALL rap music sounds better when played at lower volume.
 
Personally, I find rap music sounds best when it's played at zero volume    Amazing soundstage, and amazing tranquility...

mython said:

   
 
Actually, the accurate technical reason for your findings is that it's because you listen to rap music.
 
ALL rap music sounds better when played at lower volume.
 
Personally, I find rap music sounds best when it's played at zero volume 

  Amazing soundstage, and amazing tranquility...

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lol. actually I found that at some jazz vocal songs. 
 
Didn't know you are racist again hip hop.

 
There are one or 2 old skool mainstream hip-hop tracks from the 1980s that I don't mind...
 
 
Hope you didn't mind that I chose to 'Express' myself

mython said:

 

 
There are one or 2 old skool mainstream hip-hop tracks from the 1980s that I don't mind...
 
 
Hope you didn't mind that I chose to 'Express' myself

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Straight outta Compton is probably my least favorite hip hop album (Luckily ice cube was in there) from "golden era”.  
 
Try these