[kamalz]

Quote:

 
Sorry but this is ridiculous. To my knowledge there has never been a single scientific measurement released to back up cable manufacturer's claims of improved sound quality and releasing said measurements would in no way harm their 'research' or reveal any kind of trade secrets.

 
     if you are using a good normal rig  to power up you  headphones hd600  , then you will conclude this. if cables cannot improves sound, then the giant company like the lossless or cardas company cable will close shop. even the furutech & iso clean company selling high end audio "fuse"  also will close shop.This is common sense. The problem is you need a control environment & a high end source to hear this. This could cost more than 2000 pounds easily. I am not bragging , but just to ensure that my set up gives a very life like sound, i have spend a lot. total weight of my entiry rig is easily more than 50 kilogram--even my noise filter is more han 3 kilos .. i am kinda out of the box guy . for true audiophiles, they did not care what type or brand you use, the main thing is that the they wanted the life-like sound. You must be there in the music world when listening to music. when i am listening to "yanni in mandalay bay blue rays" .. at one point Yanni himself almost  disbelief when hearing the Sam the violionist hit an incredible notes..you can see yanni is shivering for a moment.. In my  rigs, i also felt the same like yanni ( after i further do some more tweaking to my rigs) ..my god it was an unbelievable..this sam is a perfectionist so is yanni
 
        having said all these, try to be open minded when new things thrown to us. do more research. try to listen to more set up.If you could bring the headphones to a recording studio. for your info even gorge cardas was unable to explain why cables touching the flow shows distortion electricity ( through a oscilloscope) ..try to google it in you tube.. i think he is honest
 
   I have been in audio world for almost 20 years..from car audio, home audio to headphone.. I choose headphone to be my last because i know, if i get use to headphone sound so much, then the rigs in my mid end home or car audio would sound mediocore compared to it

 

[kamalz]

Quote:

 
 if you still cannot hear the difference, then it would be your capability in hearing..
  You can always went to a doctor to check the frequncy range that your hearing able to identified
If your hearing is so refined, then I guess you could pick out the aftermarket cable in a controlled test? 

 This has been debated forever, but there's no science behind your claim AFAIK... only a trick of the mind/emotions.  But whatever floats your boat

  
    I do have a very very control environment in my rigs.
    there are things science could never explain.Science could not explain everything..like god existence
    the short disppearence of sttue of liberty in new york by david copperfield for instance. the list go on & on

 

[kamalz]

Quote:

I spent an hour reading up on the differences of low/high capacitance wire. Since I'm a technical moron I won't try to explain it.
After about 2 years of making my own (crappy) cables I do think the only differences are due to the capacitance and a combination of the amp/dac and many other things.
They say that this will have no effect on how a headphone cables sounds because headphone cables are so short. Has this ever been proven?
 
My opinion is that very low capacitance wire is awful on very bright (and/or thin) sounding headphones. It makes them even MORE analytical or thin sounding. Don't know why. Try putting silver wire, silver plated copper or anything with a low capacitance on the K702 and it will sound awful. Why don't people use silver on the K702 and only with the really dark headphones? I'll let you guess! Interesting when people say silver removes their "veil". I used ALO SXC on my Q701 for a few months, but it seems to suck the life out of it despite sounding clearer and more detailed. Just not as musical to my ears. I imagine it's ultra low capacitance wire like Cat6.
 
Then the high capacitance wire seems to make my headphones sound more muffled or fool me into thinking they have less treble. I use Canare sometimes with my Q701, but it sounds less clear.
 
So basically for me, low cap. means it generally might sound thinner/bright (not dramatically different) and high is warmer/fuller sounding. Often a lot more muffled. Overall, small differences and maybe subtle to some.
 
My guess if you had two different wire brands with the same capacitance and shielding they might sound identical on the same equipment.
 
I did some research and it appears that the HD-650 cable is much higher capacitance then I'd imagine. It's probably up there with Canare. I used my DHC cable with my HD-650 and it lost some of that warmth that I like. You can switch to even the HD-600 cable and it's slightly less warm. I guess not everyone could tell. I bet it's a different type of wire and Sennheiser knews exactly what they want with the HD-650 cable.  The stock HD-650 makes everything nice and full sounding.
 
So..I prefer the HD-650 stock cable. Replacing it with a lower capacitance wire makes it sounds like it's clearer, has more detail and a larger soundstage, but I think the brain is being fooled somehow. I reminds me how the Q701 sounds like it has a smaller soundstage due to being much warmer than the K702. That's probably not the only reason.
 
Another interesting thing i've found is that Cardas claims the capacitance of their wire is around 45pF/foot. Which they say is similar to anything at any department store.
 
It's interesting that with all the forum reading i've been doing, some people say to use the lowest capacitance wire you can find. I think this is a bad idea. Somewhere in the middle seems best. If you like a really warm sounding headphone, silver, CAT6 or SXC wouldn't be a VERY bad idea.
 
What I've love to do is find out for sure what the capacitance of the HD-650/600 cable is and then find one that's as close to that as possible. HD-650 in another thread is 290pF for 1.15 meters.
 
So I guess I think to my ears these things are the main differences. I need to do more testing. It'd be interesting to find a wire that's similar somewhere in between what's considered high or low capacitance. I think maybe I should make an HD-600/650 cable using department store RCA, GE, Radioshack or even Monprice speaker wire. Should be interesting.  I think maybe Cardas is right, that they're somewhere around in the middle.
 
Here's some interesting links i've found:
 
http://www.thegearpage.net/board/showthread.php?s=8b20b4558c90afcfd476abfa1625108f&t=865772
http://www.head-fi.org/t/79347/sennheiser-hd650-cable-capacitance
 
So, I believe in cables making minor differences, but sometimes it can make things worse. I do think that you could find a 50 cents/foot wire that sounds as good as the fancy pants expensive stuff. Maybe not, but I can try. Of course that special stuff is 99.999999999% pure or whatever else.
 
BTW I do like high quality wire that's slightly more expensive because it has better shielding and you can get it already sleeved in the Starquad variety. Saves a ton of times when making headphone cables.
 
Funnily enough i'm using a $10 GE Signature Pro interconnect. Sounds great and it's covered in a clear plastic cover and you can see the shielding inside

 
Oh yeah.. the HD-650 cable may technically not be as high quality as an expensive aftermarket cable, but it sounds pretty good. The trick for me would be to retain 100% of it's warmth and improve on what's already there without changing much. My guess is Mogami is very close to the stock HD-650 cable.

     Very informative..
     how about the way the wire is braided?

 

[devhen]

Quote:

  
    I do have a very very control environment in my rigs.
    there are things science could never explain.Science could not explain everything..like god existence
    the short disppearence of sttue of liberty in new york by david copperfield for instance. the list go on & on

 

 .......... 

 
Thank you kindly sir. I've never laughed so hard or so long because of a head-fi post. Plus you've saved me the time of taking anything you say seriously.
 
Best. Post. Ever.

 

[palmfish]

Quote:

  
   there are things science could never explain...the short disppearence of sttue of liberty in new york by david copperfield for instance

I agree the benefits/effects of cables, power cords, fuses, and conditioners are all explained by a similar phenomenon that allowed David Copperfield to cause the Statue of Liberty to disappear...

 

[devhen]

Quote:

I agree the benefits/effects of cables, power cords, fuses, and conditioners are all explained by a similar phenomenon that allowed David Copperfield to cause the Statue of Liberty to disappear...

 
Can't.... Stop.... Laughing....
 
I can't believe I'm saying this but.... I wan't to hear more from @kamalz. 

 

[lejaz]

Quote:

  
    I do have a very very control environment in my rigs.
    there are things science could never explain.Science could not explain everything..like god existence
    the short disppearence of sttue of liberty in new york by david copperfield for instance. the list go on & on
 
 

I think we've discussed this topic before, only you were using another name. Since it's an interesting topic I'll reply even though I'm sure you're just playing the troll here. I'm thinking that what happens with expectation bias is that you become a little like the magician you mentioned, David Copperfield... only your mind is doing magic tricks for you, not for an audience.
<edit> Ah, I see palmfish beat me to it 

 

[CBF-]

david copperfield and the statue of liberty....... has to be a troll.

 

[kamalz]

Quote:

david copperfield and the statue of liberty....... has to be a troll.

 
    how about paul the octopus??

    i think that creature got lucky when taking a snack..
    so very sorry he passed away so soon...
    else , all people would have bet chesea to win champions league last year ..

 

[kamalz]

Quote:

I think we've discussed this topic before, only you were using another name. Since it's an interesting topic I'll reply even though I'm sure you're just playing the troll here. I'm thinking that what happens with expectation bias is that you become a little like the magician you mentioned, David Copperfield... only your mind is doing magic tricks for you, not for an audience.
<edit> Ah, I see palmfish beat me to it 

 
    nope.. i am just a believer.. I believe on what i see & experience..
    take your hd600 & your favourite cd to international hifi shows...plug it to their equipment.. then you will what high end music is all about  .
    or bring along your equipment (dac & amp) & plug them also into their high end conditioner  ( to me : shunyate hydra 8 is awesome)
    then you will xperience  the magic of hd600 plus the so called fuse, conditioner & a control environment  are all about
 
   and Be prepare to meet David copperfield..hehe

 

[lejaz]

Quote:

 
    nope.. i am just a believer.. I believe on what i see & experience..
    take your hd600 & your favourite cd to international hifi shows...plug it to their equipment.. then you will what high end music is all about  .
    or bring along your equipment (dac & amp) & plug them also into their high end conditioner  ( to me : shunyate hydra 8 is awesome)
    then you will xperience  the magic of hd600 plus the so called fuse, conditioner & a control environment  are all about
 
   and Be prepare to meet David copperfield..hehe

. i am just a believer.. I believe on what i see & experience..
So if a magician makes a bunch of birds fly out of a hat, you believe the birds were really waiting inside that hat until he came along? 

 
Price, appearance, reviews, various other visual and social cues, mood, expectation....are all able to cause the 'magic' to happen.  Yes indeed, we love to fool ourselves with 'magic'.  That's what the "the magic of hd600 plus the so called fuse, conditioner & a control environment  are all about". It's like voodoo but a bit more pleasant, haha.  But put that magic in a carefully controlled dbt where appearance, price, and other cues are absent, and it suddenly disappears....every single time it's been done.....like a mirage. 

 

[lejaz]

Here's an excellent thread from the sound science forum for those interested in controlled testing: http://www.head-fi.org/t/599882/what-are-the-arguments-against-double-blind-tests-incl-abx/45  

 

[kamalz]

Quote:

. i am just a believer.. I believe on what i see & experience..
So if a magician makes a bunch of birds fly out of a hat, you believe the birds were really waiting inside that hat until he came along? 

 
Price, appearance, reviews, various other visual and social cues, mood, expectation....are all able to cause the 'magic' to happen.  Yes indeed, we love to fool ourselves with 'magic'.  That's what the "the magic of hd600 plus the so called fuse, conditioner & a control environment  are all about". It's like voodoo but a bit more pleasant, haha.  But put that magic in a carefully controlled dbt where appearance, price, and other cues are absent, and it suddenly disappears....every single time it's been done.....like a mirage. 

   
    I still believe on my believe for the time being. anyway thanks for the input
 
    alas.. like i said before.. bring our  hd600 to be driven by high end equipment.
    Benchmark dac 1 is an affordadle high end giant killer dac -- it is rated stereophile class a , if i am not mistaken
    bring along standard & good aftermarket cables to see  hear the difference.. see wether minor or vast difference
    bechmark the music created in the high end set up to your current set up. 
    the good point is you know the reference point.
    the bad point is you may notice that your set is just a set that produce  sound & not music ..no offence
    then all this magic will be explained.. until then , this debate will be based on opinions & never end
   
    i have done quite a bit survey on people satisfaction on sound
    some do have a low standard for them to achieve satisfaction
    some set the standard so high ..most of them are critical listeners, musicians, guyswork in studio -they are proffesionals
    some even could not detect the difference but most of them never go to doctors get the listening test, at least this is true in my country
 
    the point is, have we ever listen to high end set up so set the standard on where our set up is.
    there must be a reference point . where are we in music reproduction using hd600. else becomes no meaning
 
     of course the ultimate reference is real life music.. eg a live ochestra.
     yes, sometimes we dont have the opportunity to listen to live music for some reasons
     thats is why audio enthusiast will listen to comments by audio reviewers on new products inside serious hifi magazine such stereophile magazine
     all this reviewers have some high end equipment in a controled environment as a benchmark   & they are professional in what they do 
     they did review hd600 & give rave reviews ..but .. they did not use stock cable.  and you dont have to be a doctor to know why..
 
     We are here to help others to get the best out of this hd 600. We are not to intimidate or made fun of people.

 

[Lorspeaker]

I m with kalmaz....
Cept I dun hav the 50k gears.
Evey one of my 50bucks cable makes a diff to my ears..
On my 500bucks macAir setup.


For all the fun poking ...I would believe some are naturally blessed with less sensitive ears.
And some gears just can't pick out the diff,
And some gears are so well designed that no outside influence could get thru the metal casing.

Give me your address kalmaz,
I wanna meet Yanni n Sam in your basement.

 

[Lorspeaker]

Tripled post off my iPad..zzz