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asr said:

.....I think the HD800 and T1 are both overpriced and don't belong in the >$1K category based on their sound. If they were more around the $500-$1K range I would probably call them more fairly priced relative to the competition.
 

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I'm in complete agreement with that statement.
 
Nice review Steve.  Thanks for taking the time to do it.
 
Eric

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bhanja_trinanjan said:

T1 a refined K-701?? My ears just don't agree.

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As a T1 user, I agreed T1 and K701 shares some common feature.
 
1.They are both try to make a "pin-point" imaging, although takes very different way.
2.They both have very flexible treble enegry and clarity.
 
 
But as a per se DT990 user, i would say T1 is more like a refined DT990. Not that "Mid-recessed"  talks, but with a extra definite depth of field and nice smooth mid-highs.
 
 
Although not cheap, I think T1 and HD800's ask price are reasonable,  the two headphones are concept headphone,at least., like B&W Nautilus and Dynaudio Evidence, or Sonus Faber Stradivari and Franco Serblin Ktêma (in the terms of spatial tricks)

I'm curious if anyone has bothered to read my review notes yet, and if so, I'd appreciate any feedback on whether or not it was helpful to include them.
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jalo said:

I do have one question for you. How long have you been using or owning the T1 or the HD800? I have my HD800 for over a year now and I am still finding new aspects of the phone that I didn't realize or hear before. I have come to believe that one must live with a phone long enough to know its full characteristics, ability and shortcomigns. Sometimes a quick listen (not that you are since I don't know that) may not allow a person to fully know a phone.

My second comment is that your criticism or observation (depending on how you look at it) of the phones when it is compared to your experience of the sound of a violin is very true but a bit harsh and I don't mean it in a negative way. I have several children that attended Suzuki Violin school for a few years and as you know, just puting aside or forgeting about headphone for a second, which reproduce the violin sound through a thousand steps of electronic conversion, even if you just find a $50.00 violin and compare the sound to a $20,000.00 Violin you will probably say the $50.00 violin sounds unnatural and you are comparing real life equipment to another real life equipment.

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I've had the HD800 since May and the T1 since April and have been using them off and on since then. As is usually the case for previous reviews I've written, the listening for this one was over a period of months where I re-checked my ongoing impressions as often as possible and re-listened to CD tracks to ensure consistent results of what I was hearing. I would also add that my experience as a violinist wasn't intended to invalidate the HD800 or T1 for classical music, as everyone has a preference and either of the headphones could easily work for someone else. They just didn't completely work for me.
 
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So...would it be proper to say that, at least in some respects, you prefer the HD600 to the HD800/T1?

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The mention of the HD600 was in there only to add a suggestion of possible alternatives that correctly render the sound of a violin. It was certainly one of the better things I noted about the HD600 when I last owned one, as I don't have one now - I sold it for a variety of other reasons. But for the price that an HD600 can be had for, I'd call the HD600 a really good inexpensive multi-purpose headphone.
 
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maxvla said:

Jalo, it seems he did find his reference with the violin in the Omega 2s. I'm not sure what your point is. He offered cheaper alternatives that were as close to the Omega 2's as possible.

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Just to correct you on a minor point, I did not mean the other headphones mentioned were necessarily close to the sound of the OII - just that I thought they were the next best headphone that achieved a properly natural sound of a violin with progressively cheaper price tags.
 
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oqvist said:

If the M3 is similar to the Auditor I can see some where the comparisons come from. Though it´s mucho refined of course. T1 is very good showing differences between amps I have noticed.

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One of the things that I'll be doing next: using the T1 to compare some amps I have (M3, Auditor, and Asgard) and find out how it responds to each one. Further impressions on that will follow later.

Woah.. awesome reviews.  I wish there was some sort of setup/headphone that can do violin and piano right. 

T1s original pricing, and their pricing from beyer germany came out to be like sub 1k. I got mine for 950.
I think it was a good price for them. More than that, yeah, a bit too much.

Asr is right saying that the T1 is a better version of the K701. This is exactly what I posted in another thread some time ago but you have to use a serious amp for both headphones to discover it. I listened to the T1 on the Cary SLI-80, two Lake People amps, another solid state amp surpassing in several fields the Cary, and on an upgraded Lehmann BCL clone which was the worst experience of the bunch with the T1 but quite fun with the K701, tested also on the "mysterious" solid state amp being the winner here in both cases. Sources used were: mbl 1431 and some others on the same or similar (higher, lower) level. The conclusion is - the most natural upgrade from the K 701 is Beyerdynamic T1, especially after this mod which makes a substantial difference when the equipment is good enough. No more problems with treble quality and resolution plus the features explained in that thread.

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asr said:

Just to correct you on a minor point, I did not mean the other headphones mentioned were necessarily close to the sound of the OII - just that I thought they were the next best headphone that achieved a properly natural sound of a violin with progressively cheaper price tags.
 

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My comment was only within the scope of the sound of the violin. I suppose I should have stated it more clearly.
 

Absolutely terrific review.  Thanks for the effort it took to conduct and write it 

Thanks for a terrific review.  Hoping to decide between HD800 and T1 to compliment the LCD2s...as yet undecided.  Cheers. 
 
P.S I found the attached notes most useful and am now very curios of the AD2000s.

 
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asr said:

I'm curious if anyone has bothered to read my review notes yet, and if so, I'd appreciate any feedback on whether or not it was helpful to include them.

I've had the HD800 since May and the T1 since April and have been using them off and on since then. As is usually the case for previous reviews I've written, the listening for this one was over a period of months where I re-checked my ongoing impressions as often as possible and re-listened to CD tracks to ensure consistent results of what I was hearing. I would also add that my experience as a violinist wasn't intended to invalidate the HD800 or T1 for classical music, as everyone has a preference and either of the headphones could easily work for someone else. They just didn't completely work for me.
 

The mention of the HD600 was in there only to add a suggestion of possible alternatives that correctly render the sound of a violin. It was certainly one of the better things I noted about the HD600 when I last owned one, as I don't have one now - I sold it for a variety of other reasons. But for the price that an HD600 can be had for, I'd call the HD600 a really good inexpensive multi-purpose headphone.
 

Just to correct you on a minor point, I did not mean the other headphones mentioned were necessarily close to the sound of the OII - just that I thought they were the next best headphone that achieved a properly natural sound of a violin with progressively cheaper price tags.
 

One of the things that I'll be doing next: using the T1 to compare some amps I have (M3, Auditor, and Asgard) and find out how it responds to each one. Further impressions on that will follow later.

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Asr, I have the K-702 and the T1 and I find both to have some shortcomings when they try to render clarinets, especially clarinets and violins together. The clarinet seems to take too much of a back seat, even though the pitch is correct on the K-702. Your thoughts?

 
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donthuang said:

But as a per se DT990 user, i would say T1 is more like a refined DT990. Not that "Mid-recessed"  talks, but with a extra definite depth of field and nice smooth mid-highs.  
 
Although not cheap, I think T1 and HD800's ask price are reasonable,  the two headphones are concept headphone,at least., like B&W Nautilus and Dynaudio Evidence, or Sonus Faber Stradivari and Franco Serblin Ktêma (in the terms of spatial tricks)

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That's exactly my impression, too. A very clearly refined DT990 ....
 
Sennheiser and Beyerdynamics are both German (and European) companies and you have to take the European pricing of competing headphones like the Audio-Technica ATH-W5000 or the Denon AH-D7000 into account. They both cost around 1000 Euros here in Germany and both the T1 and the HD800 are much more neutral and balanced in my opinion.
 
One more thing might be the configuration of the M³ head amp (here the version made by Rockhopper Audio...):
As a longtime M³ user (and I also built it and chose the parts on my own) I'd like to call attention to the selection of opamps used in the M³. In my experience BurrBrown Opamps like the OPA 627/637AP (I think Rockhopper Audio chose them) are not the best choice for the HD800, because the combination tends to have a dry midrange and a slightly sharp trebble. Maybe the AD 843 would be a more neutral (or warmer) choice for the HD800.
 
The OPA627/637AP paired with the T1 tend to sound a bit warm and maybe the bass control is a bit too loose. No idea so far what opamp could have the best synergy with the T1 ...

Thank you VERY much ASR. This was an awesome review. 
 
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sean-xenos said:

The OPA627/637AP paired with the T1 tend to sound a bit warm and maybe the bass control is a bit too loose. No idea so far what opamp could have the best synergy with the T1 ...

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This wasnt an op amp review, this was a headphone review. The sound signature of an op amp in a buffered amp applies pretty evenly to all headphones IME. So everything (except the O2) is playing off of a level field.
 
As an effort of stating the strengths and weaknesses of each headphone mentioned relative to the others (detailed description/comparison of Omega 2 is excluded in condensed version, but taken as the definition of all that is awesome and correct, which is pretty accurate IMO) this review was outstanding, and the methods totally acceptable. The only way to do this fairly is to use the same op amp in the same amp for every headphone (or the same transistors in your transistor amp if you roll transistors, or same tube in same hybrid...). Certain changes to the system may improve the overall listening experience with certain headphones relative to the others, but thats not the point here. The point here is you say "I have a K701 but I dont like that they sound in the bass-less region" so you look down the chart and see that the T1 does everything the K701 does right but dosnt have the glaring faults where the K701 does. You buy the T1 and go on your merry way. Perhaps you have the T1 and think they have too much bass. Perhaps you dont like anything about the K701 but like how the description of the HD800 sounds compared to them. Buy them with confidence.
 
Something that I think is kind of off with these reviews in general (no offense to Steve, just a comment on head-fi) is that people who have the experience and patience to write a review this through seldom compare what I would loosely call "middle tier" headphones to high end ones. Not to say "low end" is inherently bad, but you know. There is far too much "this is good because I say so" (sorry, the definition of awesome and correct comes from the Omega2, not your loud mouth) and not enough legitimate in depth comparison. It has been many years since there has been a reallllllly good in depth comparison of the current FOTM VS a true top tier headphone. There is initially some resistance, to a review like this but it ultimately results in the FOTM becoming FOLM (flavor of last month) after a few people provide agreeable descriptions. Despite what we may LIKE to hear, most people with functional hearing can tear a headphone apart and say "this has more this, that has more that".
 
The rotation of FOTMs is actually quite good for the community & website as a whole. It encourages increased user participation and by encouraging people to listen for themselves discourages the power shills have to hock their wares.
 
I guess the death of the comparative review is probably a result of the fact that the majority of the people who used to write reviews like this have stopped frequenting this site, or have settled on their systems and stopped rolling FOTMs like mad, and the torch was not passed to enough people to keep the tradition alive.

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nikongod said:

 
 
I guess the death of the comparative review is probably a result of the fact that the majority of the people who used to write reviews like this have stopped frequenting this site, or have settled on their systems and stopped rolling FOTMs like mad, and the torch was not passed to enough people to keep the tradition alive.

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So true!!

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nikongod said:

This wasnt an op amp review, this was a headphone review. The sound signature of an op amp in a buffered amp applies pretty evenly to all headphones IME. So everything (except the O2) is playing off of a level field.

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I'm quite aware of that
 
I just gave you my experience as a longtime user of the M³ amp, that was used in this comparison .... if you know better ... here you are
 
And there have been discussions about the synergy between the amp and the headphones used in this thread ....
 
I certainly appreciate this review and like to thank the reviewer for it, no doubt about that.

 
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bhanja_trinanjan said:

T1 a refined K-701?? My ears just don't agree.

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Is because the 701 is dark... but nobody mention that maybe the 800 is to birth, and the K702 just sound natural compare to the glossy treble of the 800's. On the Auditor the 800 are louder by 2.5 db on the volume knob, on higher volume the 800's get destroyed because of the extended/boost of the sub and the treble and do not hold the dynamic, compare to the 702 that hold superb dynamic on ANY volume. BTW a boost on the bass will always add more bass even on Massive Attack's : )
 
The 800 sound stage have nothing to do with the 702's , remind me the 600 sound stage with more extension of the treble and the bass, The sound stage depth of the 800 is even not close to the 701/2, sound stage is all about pin point the sound direction in a perfect 3D sphere, and yes easy to hear the reverb in a smaller sound stage because is closer to you. 
 
lol, between the T-1 and the HD800, I think I'll take home the JH13, or even the JH16 (need to check them out).