The "Lovely Cube" Headphone Amp (Lehmann Black Cube Linear Clone)
Feb 1, 2011 at 4:29 PM Post #376 of 1,624


Quote:
My reply was to ringer. He wanted to know the capacitator's brand and voltage.............. Believe me, Norbert will quickly and personally reply to your e-mails, you don't have to ask for him either..
 
Also, audiophile products are a niche market and Lehmann products are even more niche, you can't compare it to BMW.. Somebody needs a reality check.

Sorry. No offense. (Btw what is wrong with BMW?) :)))
 
Hold on, take a break and think about once more... First reason. Would you ask someone if his product is genuine even if it costs a lots of money (twice than competition)? Does not sound it naive to you? I mean, I bought something (or I want to buy) that is not "mass market product", I spent over 1000 USD and suddenly I ask seller:"If this capacitor is genuine?" Honestly, I someone asked me that, I would think that he is trying to make a joke with me. Second reason. Because he is seller, he wants to sell his product. So what do you expect him to say? Something like: "No! They are not genuine! I like to sell counterfeits!"
 
Feb 1, 2011 at 8:00 PM Post #377 of 1,624
I am really pissed off because all this babbling about "not genuine" stuff. So, before half hour I finished testing hFE with multimeter.
 
-Toshiba 2SA1015/2SC1815 (bought on ebay 50 PNP and NPN on same rail) - 245-250
-MJE243/MJE253 (bought here in Croatia 10 PNP and NPN) - MJE253 - 139-145, MJE243 - 95-103
-1x BC179C - 560
-1x BC179C - 420
-2 x BC109C - 470-475
 
-10 x BD139 - 132-152
-10 x BD140 - 125-163
 
Now interesting part comes...
 
-2 x BC550 (stock LC) - 11 (Whatever that means...)
-2 x BC560 (stock LC) - 20 (Whatever that means...)
 
-10 x BC550 (bought in Germany) - 8 (Whatever that means...)
-10 x BC560 (bought in Germany) - 9 (Whatever that means...)
 
If we compare numbers only (I do not care about their meaning-not any more) it seems that "not genuine" Toshibas have good results (small deviation between PNP and NPN). BC-s supplied with LC have higher gain than those bought in Germany. (reputable dealer). BDs (also bought in Germany - reputable dealer) have big difference between hFE. Greater than MJE (bought here in Croatia).
 
My setup (right now) is two BC109C and two BC179C (big hFE difference like stated above) with stock LC BDs (probably not genuine). I measured (after 2 hours listening to music) less than 3mV DC offset. And that offset is EQUAL ON BOTH CHANNELS. We were talking about genuine/counterfeits/good/bad/ugly transistors... My amp is made of counterfeit parts. Why then is DC offset so small? Why I do not hear cracking? Why my headphones working better than ever? Why I am not able to hear any strange noises? Why I haven't died in flames caused by my counterfeit amplifier?
 
I thing all this about genuine/conterfeit parts is overemphasized. Too much. I think we should listen to music more and less care about fu--- equipment.
 
Feb 1, 2011 at 9:29 PM Post #379 of 1,624
I think counterfeit doesn't necessarily mean you'll be covered with flames but rather what you're listening with counterfeit parts is not what the amp's design is capable of outputing.
 
You can buy a counterfeit Sony LCD television in NYC which will look like a real Sony and output a picture but the picture quality will be nowhere near the same.
 
Basically, the BCL was engineered to sound a certain way however, with the clone not being the same quality and possibly filled with some counterfeit parts, it might not be upto the same par as the BCL (SQ wise). 
 
Then there's the longevity issue, also.
 
P.s. I think the LC sounds awesome but if it is indeed loaded with counterfeit parts, then I can't imagine how good a real BCL sounds. I just wish I knew how to solder/desolder and match all these parts.
 
Feb 2, 2011 at 12:23 AM Post #380 of 1,624
The 470uF 25V Electrolytic used to decouple the Diamond Output Buffer stages and the Op-Amp in the Lehmann Black Cube is a United Chemicon part, LXZ family.
 
This part seems to be LXZ25VB471M10X16LL, 10x16mm. The specs on this part are pretty good for a switchmode supply type application: Zmax(100kHz)=68m Ohm, and Ir(100kHz)=1,050A, but at audio frequencies (1kHz), you only get about 85%.
 
See the data sheet: www.chemi-con.com/files/LXZ0703.pdf
 
You can get this part from digi-key: 470µF Aluminum Capacitor United Chemi-Con Radial, Can 25V ELXZ250ELL471MJ16SCAP 470UF 25V ELECT LXZ RAD - ELXZ250ELL471MJ16S - Capacitors.
 
See: http://parts.digikey.com/1/parts/44912-cap-470uf-25v-elect-lxz-rad-elxz250ell471mj16s.html
 
They cost USD$0.7 or USD$0.5 for 10 pieces, around USD$5.00 - This is where we got ours...
 
 
Feb 2, 2011 at 12:50 AM Post #381 of 1,624
Incidentally, the orange axial capacitors used Vishay BCcomponents Polypropylene Film Foil Capacitors
KP Axial Epoxy Lacquered Type:

 
  1. 22nF or 20nF, KP460 URdc = 63 V; URac = 40 V: Bypass the 470uF Electrolytics used around the OPAMP and also used to bypass the 1,5uF MKP EPCOS capacitors on the input.
  2. 100p, KP464 URdc = 630 V; URac = 200 V: One used on each of the non-inverting inputs of the OPAMP, connected to ground
 
I think these parts have been discontinued by VISHAY. Also I heard that some of the newer Lehmann Black Cubes have switched to using a 20nF KP460 rather than the 22nF KP460 that I've seen in older builds of the Lehmann.
 
I'm guessing they have gone around looking to buy up the last remaining stocks of these parts and had to settle for the 20nF values rather than the 22nF - who knows?
 
There are other parts that you can try...more to come...
 
Feb 2, 2011 at 1:03 AM Post #382 of 1,624
Just to put things into perspective, when I was in Shanghai last year, I picked up 5 of the Lovely Cube clone PCBs at an Electronics Market that a work colleague took me too. They cost USD$5.00 each - USD$25.00 for the lot. I actually paid the guy in USD as I had ran out of Yuan!!
 
I think those guys on EBay are doing well for themselves...selling the Lovely Cube at those prices...It's what the market will stand I guess...
 
The great thing with the markets in Shanghai is you can buy almost anything Electronic; there are a lot of factories there that will dump their end of line stocks and people will sell them in these markets...I got what I think are genuine ELNA SILMIC RFS 16mm dia x 25mm L, Capacitors, the guy had them in the ELNA bags of 100pcs and what looked like factory original packaging. boxed etc, I bought a broken bag of 470uF 25V caps, 50 pcs for USD$8.00 - this was unbelievable Digi-Key sell them for way more at USD$3.45 each!!!!!!!: He wanted USD$15 for 100 pcs!
 
http://search.digikey.com/scripts/DkSearch/dksus.dll?Detail&name=604-1058-ND
 
This guy had literally hundreds of them - my colleague asked where he got them from and it was from a factory making amplifiers for some Japanese company and that they had finished production with a lot of left over parts...my colleague a local, thought this guy was genuine...I reckon I got lucky too!
 
Feb 2, 2011 at 1:43 AM Post #383 of 1,624

 
Quote:
Just to put things into perspective, when I was in Shanghai last year, I picked up 5 of the Lovely Cube clone PCBs at an Electronics Market that a work colleague took me too. They cost USD$5.00 each - USD$25.00 for the lot. I actually paid the guy in USD as I had ran out of Yuan!!
 
I think those guys on EBay are doing well for themselves...selling the Lovely Cube at those prices...It's what the market will stand I guess...
 
The great thing with the markets in Shanghai is you can buy almost anything Electronic; there are a lot of factories there that will dump their end of line stocks and people will sell them in these markets...I got what I think are genuine ELNA SILMIC RFS 16mm dia x 25mm L, Capacitors, the guy had them in the ELNA bags of 100pcs and what looked like factory original packaging. boxed etc, I bought a broken bag of 470uF 25V caps, 50 pcs for USD$8.00 - this was unbelievable Digi-Key sell them for way more at USD$3.45 each!!!!!!!: He wanted USD$15 for 100 pcs!
 
http://search.digikey.com/scripts/DkSearch/dksus.dll?Detail&name=604-1058-ND
 
This guy had literally hundreds of them - my colleague asked where he got them from and it was from a factory making amplifiers for some Japanese company and that they had finished production with a lot of left over parts...my colleague a local, thought this guy was genuine...I reckon I got lucky too!


 
This is interesting. I don't mean to start a war. While at post #329 you made mention:
 
Quote:
FlukeII said:
/img/forum/go_quote.gif

Hi francisdemarte,
Laser Collection's clones are not bad, I compared their PCB with the original Lehmann Black Cube Linear PCB and you would think the PCB’s have come from the same Gerber (CAD) .....
 
Either way, I could never afford to buy the genuine Lehmann - just too pricy by the time it gets down to NZ! I saw it in a shop locally, listened to it and thought nice sound, but no way was it worth the money they were asking (NZD$1900) - I just had to walk away from it. When the kit came up on eBay I jumped at it.

 
Now you claim you bought 5 from shanghai last year while you were there? I highly doubt those PCB are that common given the only 2 variants that we have seen so far here. Lasercollection is not located in Shanghai, he is in Hong Kong. For $100 for a populated circuit there are time and work involved. I will be interested to know if you can do any better at this price. To go as far as to claim they are doing real well, maybe you should consider the superior price of the Lehmann vs the real components in your own words you said its not worth the money. In short you have condemned the real item for being too expensive and the cheaper closer option as a fake and guys making them are making buckets? LOL What a joke.
 
Feb 2, 2011 at 2:19 AM Post #384 of 1,624
hey

rayshader
 
 
LOL...The clones of the Lehmann Black Cube Linear are widely available in China - Check out: Taobao's Auction site: For example: http://item.taobao.com/item.htm?id=170113383 for one....490 Yuan or USD$75 isn't bad for an amp in a box!!!
 
Sounds like you need to get out and see the world more?
deadhorse.gif

 
Feb 2, 2011 at 2:24 AM Post #385 of 1,624


Quote:
hey

rayshader
 
 
LOL...The clones of the Lehmann Black Cube Linear are widely available in China - Check out: Taobao's Auction site: For example: http://item.taobao.com/item.htm?id=170113383 for one....490 Yuan or USD$75 isn't bad for an amp in a box!!!
 
Sounds like you need to get out and see the world more?
deadhorse.gif


Sounds like u need to learn how to lie properly. Getting from shanghai and buying off email don't mix in your tale.
 
Feb 2, 2011 at 2:31 AM Post #386 of 1,624

 
Quote:
Sounds like u need to learn how to lie properly. Getting from shanghai and buying off email don't mix in your tale.



Let's square this up once for all - I haven't been completely honest here... I got the eBay Lovely Cube back in early 2010; It actually belonged to a friend who managed to blow it up and he asked me to fix it...
Then when visiting Shanghai late last year I got to buy the boards from the market; At the market they advertised them as Lehmann Black Cube Clone boards - quite bold actually.
 
Sorry, my mistake, I should have referred to them as Lehmann Black Cube Clone boards, not Lovely Cube.
 
I got the boards for a bunch of other guys who were interested in building the clone amp -- we had a lot of fun.
 
Just out of curiosity do you work for Lehmann? Are you a Lehmann distributor or retailer? You must have a motive for wanting to challenge someone's credibility - please tell me it's not jealousy?
 
While you're at it check out this Lehmann on Taobao: http://item.taobao.com/item.htm?id=5994481434 or this one perhaps: http://item.taobao.com/item.htm?id=977771881
 
Feb 2, 2011 at 2:38 AM Post #387 of 1,624


Quote:
 
Quote:
Sounds like u need to learn how to lie properly. Getting from shanghai and buying off email don't mix in your tale.



Let's square this up once for all - I haven't been completely honest here... I got the eBay Lovely Cube back in early 2010; It actually belonged to a friend who managed to blow it up and he asked me to fix it...
Then when visiting Shanghai late last year I got to buy the boards from the market; At the market they advertised them as Lehmann Black Cube Clone boards - quite bold actually.
 
Sorry, my mistake, I should have referred to them as Lehmann Black Cube Clone boards, not Lovely Cube.
 
I got the boards for a bunch of other guys who were interested in building the clone amp -- we had a lot of fun.
 
Just out of curiosity do you work for Lehmann? Are you a Lehmann distributor or retailer?
 
While you're at it check at this Lehmann on Taobao: http://item.taobao.com/item.htm?id=5994481434 or this one perhaps: http://item.taobao.com/item.htm?id=977771881



Go on ...cook me a lovely tale.  We can just flip the pages.I wonder why you haven't bought from Taobao instead. Please do us a favour, do us a review when you have gotten one from Taobao. Looking forward for the never ending tale of fakes. LOL Thanks for the entertainment.I wouldn't trust you to fry an egg to be honest.
 
Feb 2, 2011 at 3:27 AM Post #388 of 1,624

 
Quote:
rayshader said:
Go on ...cook me a lovely tale.  We can just flip the pages.I wonder why you haven't bought from Taobao instead. Please do us a favour, do us a review when you have gotten one from Taobao. Looking forward for the never ending tale of fakes. LOL Thanks for the entertainment.I wouldn't trust you to fry an egg to be honest.

Ray, Ray, Ray,...
 
You're barking up the wrong tree...it occurred to me while I was in the Bathroom that your thinking the boards I bought were finished or fully populated. Sorry my mistake, again...
 
I interchangably use the term board to mean a PCB or PBA depending on the context...sorry
frown.gif

 
The boards were blank, just Printed Circuit Boards or PCBs, not PBA or Printed Board Assemblies as they're known in the industry...what this means is there were no, I mean, no parts (components) installed or soldered to the boards I bought...
 
I'm glad you're moderating this thread, as I guess you were confused? Hell, everyone reading this thread must have been confused...
 
Please be a little nicer about it. It costs you nothing to be civil...
redface.gif

 
Heres' a photo of the boards:

 
 
Feb 2, 2011 at 4:27 AM Post #389 of 1,624
Getting back to the main topic:
 
This is a schematic of one channel of the amp. Please note the component designators (R1, C2 etc) are wrong, but the values, 47E, 1,5K, BC550C I believe are correct.
 
The voltages are helpful if troubleshooting a faulty board or you want to get an idea; these voltages will vary from board to board, due to component tolerances etc.
 
Also, the components themselves will change their characteristics slightly with temperature change, for example expect to see the voltages measured in the circuit to change from when the amp is first turned on, from being cold, to when the amp has been runing after an hour or so -- this is normal.
 
As an example, the Metal Film resistors you get from the likes of Mouser or Digi-Key can have a temperature coefficient (TempCo) variation from 50ppm to over 300ppm depending on make, model and design. Resistors like the expensive VISHAY Bulk Metal® Foil Precision Resistors, are super stable and super precise, typically available in 0.1% and 0.5% tolerances with a TempCo ± 8 ppm/°C (– 55°C to + 125°C) and ± 4 ppm/°C (0°C to + 60°C). If you're interested check out the VISHAY website, look for: Bulk Metal® Foil Technology Industrial Precision Resistors, VSR Series - this is what one of my mates used in his amp; just to be different. (VSR4, 47E or 47 Ohm and VSR4, 1,5k Ohm, as well as all the other values in the circuit. For the 10 Ohm Emitter resistors of the output stage he used: two VSR6 20 Ohm resistors in parallel for each 10 Ohm resistor position) Along with the other parts in the amp, it sound pretty cool.
 
These voltages were measured on an original Lehmann Black Cube Linear:
 

 
If you stick in different transistors, the voltages will fluctuate and change with the gain of those devices etc, if the voltages you measure are way out, may be more than +/-50%; I seriously think something is wrong with the circuit.
 
Avoid using an old Analogue Style Meter (Ones that have a needle that moves on a fixed display) when measuring voltages around the BC560C and BC550C transistors. The internal resistance of these types of meters will affect the operating point of the circuit, also known as "loading the circuit" and can give false readings, or readings that seem there might be a fault. I have a FLUKE 189 meter that I cherish, but a FLUKE 110 or 112 is just as good - I personally like FLUKE meters a lot, But any good DVM (Digital Volt Meter) is OK, like HP, SANWA etc...Please don't take this as a beat up on analogue meters - they have there place too...it's just sometimes some tools work better than others...
 
For what it's worth, the transistors mounted on the Lehmann board were:
  • ON SEMI Brand: BC550C
  • ON SEMI Brand: BC560C
  • FAIRCHILD: BD139-16
  • ST: BD140-16
 
I've used these voltages as a guide, kind of reference point with the mods we were doing. If you get really different voltages and think the amp is working fine, I would be really interested to know!
beyersmile.png

 
Feb 2, 2011 at 5:15 AM Post #390 of 1,624


Quote:
Getting back to the main topic:
 
This is a schematic of one channel of the amp. Please note the component designators (R1, C2 etc) are wrong, but the values, 47E, 1,5K, BC550C I believe are correct.
 
The voltages are helpful if troubleshooting a faulty board or you want to get an idea; these voltages will vary from board to board, due to component tolerances etc. These voltages were measured on an original Lehmann Black Cube Linear:
 

 
If you stick in different transistors, the voltages will fluctuate and change with the gain of those devices etc, if the voltages you measure are way out, may be more than +/-50%; I seriously think something is wrong with the circuit.
 
Avoid using an old Analogue Style Meter (Ones that have a needle that moves on a fixed display) when measuring voltages around the BC560C and BC550C transistors. The internal resistance of these types of meters will affect the operating point of the circuit, also known as "loading the circuit" and can give false readings, or readings that seem there might be a fault. I have a FLUKE 189 meter that I cherish, but a FLUKE 110 or 112 is just as good - I personally like FLUKE meters a lot, But any good DVM (Digital Volt Meter) is OK, like HP, SANWA etc...Please don't take this as a beat up on analogue meters - they have there place too...it's just sometimes some tools work better than others...
 
For what it's worth, the transistors mounted on the Lehmann board were:
  • ON SEMI Brand: BC550C
  • ON SEMI Brand: BC560C
  • FAIRCHILD: BD139-16
  • ST: BD140-16
 
I've used these voltages as a guide, kind of reference point with the mods we were doing. If you get really different volatges and think the amp is working fine, I would be really interested to know!
beyersmile.png


Default Vout voltages were +14.8V and -15.13V. Then I used 1k resistor and trimpot (200R) to tune Vout. Now Vouts are +14.16V and -14.2V. I lowered values on Vout to achieve minimal and symmetrical DC offset on both channels, and also I took care about difference between + and - (ideal is +14.2 - 14.2 but that does not give me satisfied results - DC offset 0.2mV and 4.5mV).
 
Without trimpots I had 0 and 8.5 mV offset. But I do not like such numbers. I like keeping the balance. :)
 
Lower Vout (compared to Vin) means bigger heat disipation on regulators, but they are enough tough to sustain 0.5A each. When I do something I always try to make my most expensive device satisfied. That means - headphones. Good one are expensive, need 50> hours to burn in, and are hard to find here in Croatia. If you are able to handle DC signal in a good way, then your long time expenses are kept to a minimum. If someone talks about amplifier, my first technical question is:"How high is DC offset in your amplifier?" And then goes rest.
 
 

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