Audeze LCD2 vs Sennheiser HD800??
Feb 23, 2011 at 3:42 PM Post #1,051 of 1,379


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Do you still like the R10 more than the LCD-2, Skylab?


 
Yup.  The R10 for me truly are "The King".


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This was the closest (and least direct) of the comparisons above with a edge to the HD800 for me. The "sound-floor" of these two headphones, if you know what I mean, is very different. The HD800 seems to have a fluctuating threshold consistent throughout the entire audio band, whereas the LCD-2 sound-floor threshold was more predictable, to the point, and higher at certain bands (treble) than others (it had the most difficulty when there was a lot of "stuff" going on). The HD800 produced the lowest level information with a delicate fuzz, whereas the LCD2 either squished down the lowest level information or produced it more cleanly. I hope this makes sense. Could be DAC differences though.


Bold emphasis mine - indeed low level detail retrieval can be very difficult to nail down the weak link, and unless you and I (or anyone else) were using the same entire system to do the comparisons, the results could not be easily pinned to the headphones.  This is one reason I keep a lot of amps and sources around for reviews, even though the vast majority of amps and headphones I own get very little actual use. 
 
Feb 23, 2011 at 4:33 PM Post #1,052 of 1,379
Well I'm signing off from this because my job is done - a little bit more healthy discussion here. I'm trying to organize a mini-meet and will hopefully get another shot at the LCD-2s in a more controlled setting.
 
BTW - I do like the LCD2s (on setups that play well with it), I just like to play devil's advocate.
 
 
 
 
Feb 23, 2011 at 6:56 PM Post #1,053 of 1,379


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I don't know anymore.  This HRTF issue continues to throw a spanner in the works.  What I hear agrees with you...although I have never heard a calibrated professional monitor.  The only thing one can test is watching DVD movies, these soundtracks are recorded to a calibrated flat frequency (ie THX certifications and microphone calibrations, etc).  The LCD2 matches what I see on screen to what I hear on the headphone.  I then reference the scene to real life sounds, and this is spot on to me, eg a busy city and bustling city metropolis with traffic sounds like a busy metropolis...where I live and hear...everyday.
 

 
[size=x-small]A movie soundtrack is not a faithful recording of real life sound and highly artificial. You hear what the filmmakers and sound engineers want you to think your're hearing - sound of a waterfall is normally muti-tracks of small amount of water running because we are not used to hearing large volume of water running. The real thing doesn't sound real enough for human ears in this case.If you reference what you hear through your headphone to real life sounds and find it spot on, your brain is matching two different things and concludes that they are identical. What you hear on the street is definitely not the same as what's on any movie soundtrack.[/size]
[size=x-small]The reason I am pointing this out is because this is a good example of how a lot of people have already decided the LCD-2 sound is neutral and based everything else on this "fact". I do find it troublesome. Like n2rdling said, there were a few people in the meet that did have negative opinions about the LCD-2 but threads like this one seem to be flooded with supporters' positive impressions. Nothing wrong with people liking the headphones, but can we not assume that the LCD-2 sound is the "standard"? [/size]

 
Feb 23, 2011 at 7:05 PM Post #1,054 of 1,379


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...[size=small] Nothing wrong with people liking the headphones, but can we not assume that the LCD-2 sound is the "standard"?[/size]

I would love it if people would assume that real life is the standard.  There is no "standard" for electronic music.  It's all artificial / synthetic.
 
 
Feb 23, 2011 at 7:45 PM Post #1,055 of 1,379


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  • To reiterate, the major fault I find with the LCD2 is its inability to clearly reproduce low level information that high-end sources and transparent amps are capable of. For 80% of head-fiers, this fault may not be perceivable; even if perceivable, it would not necessarily be an important factor or criterion.
  • The extent of the heaviness, over/under-damping, solidness, earth-ness, or whatever for lack of better term, are not to my personal preference, but I could probably adjust to it if I lived with the LCD2 for a while, or maybe not. 
    smile.gif
  • The dark sounding aspect: I did not think the LCD2 was dark on the good setups I heard. The bass is clean. The tonal balance is fine. The lack of serious resonance peaks is re-assuring.


I reckon this is a good summary.  I do reckon some kind of measurements explaining what we are hearing with both headphones would be good.
 
Feb 23, 2011 at 8:24 PM Post #1,057 of 1,379


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[size=x-small]A movie soundtrack is not a faithful recording of real life sound and highly artificial. You hear what the filmmakers and sound engineers want you to think your're hearing - sound of a waterfall is normally muti-tracks of small amount of water running because we are not used to hearing large volume of water running. The real thing doesn't sound real enough for human ears in this case.If you reference what you hear through your headphone to real life sounds and find it spot on, your brain is matching two different things and concludes that they are identical. What you hear on the street is definitely not the same as what's on any movie soundtrack.[/size]
[size=x-small]The reason I am pointing this out is because this is a good example of how a lot of people have already decided the LCD-2 sound is neutral and based everything else on this "fact". I do find it troublesome. Like n2rdling said, there were a few people in the meet that did have negative opinions about the LCD-2 but threads like this one seem to be flooded with supporters' positive impressions. Nothing wrong with people liking the headphones, but can we not assume that the LCD-2 sound is the "standard"? [/size]


In fact, I think the LCD2 critics are far more aggressive than appreciative owners.  I merely aired one subjective opinion...and this is the response, not very civil or nice.  No one stops anybody from airing their negative opinions from a meet in this thread, there is no evidence that this occurs.  What you and nerdling want is asking for something silly, LCD2 owners generally subsrcibe to LCD2 threads and you would like them to stop participating.  The reason more go on about the LCD2 than the O2 is simple, the O2 BHSE that is insurmountable costs shy of 10 times the price of ownership of an LCD2...do the sums, do the logic, and expect the expected. 
 
This is why I specifically mentioned a busy metropolis, so more people have a fixed, easily accessible reference...most busy cities have the same acoustic environment that a lot of people are very familiar with.  This is not hard to record and for the audio engineer to make this as easily related to as possible in a movie theatre calibrated to flat.  It is essential for the immersion of good movies, as in Academy Award winning offerings.  I do not suggest the latest gun totting exploding block buster, these are fake sounds that cannot be related to by anyone.
 
I merely suggest this method as another data point, and not the supreme conclusion. 
 
@ Purrin:  Regarding your comments about not being to hear the fuzzy details...it just sounds to me that you are used to some of the distortions present in audio reproduction.  My experience with acoustic instruments and percussion do not have these fuzzy detials...these  are always evident to me on most speakers and headphones, that suggest to me transients that are a trace smeared.  This is why I like my LCD2s, transients and dynamic impact is very cleanly rendered...as in I have never heard anything like it before (IMO for you, a fact to me)
 
With regards to the congestion you hear, I subscribe to Currawongs theory that we are always used to a midbass hump on headphones, the lack of this hump, or refusal to start falling off after about 300-400hz contributes to this phenomena, this is a subjecteive HRTF tonal balance issue, others, like me and my hearing loss, have no such issues with congestion.  Merely theorising here.
 
Feb 23, 2011 at 8:30 PM Post #1,058 of 1,379


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@ Purrin:  Regarding your comments about not being to hear the fuzzy details...it just sounds to me that you are used to some of the distortions present in audio reproduction.  My experience with acoustic instruments and percussion do not have these fuzzy detials...


I play bass and piano. I hear these details (strings buzzing, hammers striking, finger picking, sounds echoing, etc.) in real life. Harmonics and low level information is what I mean the by the fuzz, the fuzz that goes with the buzz, not fuzzy as in indeterminate.
 
Feb 23, 2011 at 8:39 PM Post #1,059 of 1,379


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I play bass and piano. I hear these details (strings buzzing, hammers striking, finger picking, sounds echoing, etc.) in real life. Harmonics and low level information is what I mean the by the fuzz, the fuzz that goes with the buzz, not fuzzy as in indeterminate.


Well in the list of the headphones you compared to, I am intimately familiar with the HD800 and not the others, I would like to be able to hear the other headphones that reproduced what it is that is missed by the LCD2s, because as it is, compared to the HD800, my opinion match that of Skylab and several other owners of both LCD2 and HD800...owners, several, paid for with their own money, just  to make this clear in the context of this thread (that one was not aimed at you Purrin).  Yes there are owners that own both and would disagree with this...their opinion is also valid.
 
Don't get me wrong, your opinion is VERY valid.  Just don't expect that others won't air an opinion to the contrary, and I'm not saying you do Purrin, but apparently there exists people that wish this was the case.
 
Feb 23, 2011 at 9:02 PM Post #1,060 of 1,379
There is a difference in stating your own opinions and experience than stating or conjecturing how other people "are used to hearing distortions..."
 
Feb 23, 2011 at 9:07 PM Post #1,061 of 1,379


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There is a difference in stating your own opinions and experience than stating or conjecturing how other people "are used to hearing distortions..."

 
It's all opinion based upon experience.  Take it or leave it.
 
Feb 23, 2011 at 9:11 PM Post #1,062 of 1,379


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There is a difference in stating your own opinions and experience than stating or conjecturing how other people "are used to hearing distortions..."



OK, I understand.  I acknowledge that I am imperfect and hope you can understand that as well.
 
Feb 23, 2011 at 9:52 PM Post #1,064 of 1,379


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No biggie. we're cool. I've always liked you. My writing is drier than usual... trying to wrap up work.



Cheers matey,
 
I think your contributions have been fantastic, I am not one to discredit someone who plays bass and piano and are intimately familiar with those two instruments.  Unfortunately, I no longer have the HD800 with me (I had it in my possession for two whole months) so I am not able to go back and try to hear what it is you hear, and I am very much curios.  I will try and listen for these subtle harmonics the next time I have something comparable to again.
 
Feb 23, 2011 at 10:31 PM Post #1,065 of 1,379

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It's all opinion based upon experience.  Take it or leave it.


Conjecturing and making assumptions on how or what other people hear is pretty weak. It's like saying "people who like Lowthers are old farts with HF hearing loss." I hear this a lot in speaker building circles - it is "opinion based on experience", but I would never myself dare to say that to anyone who likes Lowthers regardless of age. It's just assuming too much for an individual.
 
Out of everyone who feels very highly of the LCD-2 in this thread, only Skylab has made a good argument for me to seriously reconsider them by simply saying in effect: "You crazy! I don't hear what you hear. Eliminate the variables you described and check again."
 

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