Neutered? hehe, I was just thinking about the fact that you could call the RS-2 a neutered RS-1, what a coincidence, lol.

This, btw I would have never put to words since I really begin to like them a lot.

The cable thing is really annoying, I can tell from experience I have had to buy 3 cables for my hd 410, the first one shorted out within a week of owning them.
I don't know about current quality, but all I hear is that you definately need a replacement, so in effect sennheiser could sell the phones without them
I find that hugely amusing in a weird sort of way.

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A little off the original topic but I am one of the few who actually didn't like the aftermarket cable that I have tried. I used the Cardas after about 60 hours of break-in and I felt that it was just like every other Cardas cable (ic or spk wr). It turns everything to mud. Not that the 600 has the quickest transients but the Cardas cable made the problem worse. It has made me a lil' gunshy about trying any other aftermarket cords out there. I must add that I am a solid state guy and that although I love jazz and the blues, 70% of my listening is rock. I'm sorry if this is complete heresy but its an OPINION that I haven't seen voiced here on head-fi.

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I'm willing to bet Cardas puts something in there that futzes with the sound... a couple capacitors, or something like that (other than just cable, that is). Or their cable is in some other way electrically non-neutral (capacitance wise, resistance, whatever) so that it alters the frequency balance and other characteristics of the Sennheiser HD-XXX in a way most people find pleasing.

fewtch...

...I don't know if the stock Sennheiser cable is so «bad» -- maybe it isn't --, but the replacement cable (my own design in my case) offers a considerable increase of clarity, detail and smoothness. All changes I hear are happening in the treble, and I'm not sure if the impact on the bass reported from others with their Equinox and Cardas isn't really but a psychoacoustic effect resulting from a slight balance shift in favor of the upper end. Which clearly isn't imaginated, BTW.


mega db...

...if you like the stock-cable sound better, more power to you. Not everybody likes the HD-580/600 sound -- some called it muffled and lacking treble --, but maybe you are somebody who prefers the typical warmth of the stock configuration to any deviation towards a «foreign» signature. Nothing wrong with that.

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Oh? How can that really be clear, unless you did some sort of blind testing without knowing which cable was being used at the time? BTW, please forgive my extra-super-skeptical mood this morning... it just gets annoying from time to time to keep hearing about Sennheiser replacement cables, and how bad the stock cable is. You'd think I would have "tuned it out" by now, but occasionally it still gives me a headache.

fewtch generally we don't like to discuss dbt especially in these forums and the cable forum...

why? Because we get into huge heated debates and someone gets banned. One guy received a permaban, and he deserved it.

I have spent less than 40 hours with HD600's. I can without a problem tell you which cable is on the phone at which time with my eyes closed my nose plugged, gag balled, tied to a chair, leathered up....with only my ears to respond to outside stimuli.

Extreme?

That's what the aftermarket cable effect is...EXTREME.

HD580/600 are notorious for their suckout/veil. The aftermarket cables take care of this...some better than others. My preference is by a large margin the Stefan Audio Art Equinox cable.

Oh btw, I'm not the only one who can EASILY hear the difference...seems everyone at the past 2 Ottawa meets could as well...


Maybe its a Canadian thing?

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MMmmm, RS-1's are hard to top if at all...

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RS-1's certainly won't synthetically project a vast arena like sound...but that does not mean their soundstage is actually really small. Let me give an example: I sit in my chair and I listen to Inade's Alderbaran which is an industrial amorphous space journey in ambience. Many of the sounds surround me in what I perceive as a near field. But there are some sounds which sound far away, outside of my head enough that I have turned around quite a number of times to make sure something was not coming up the stairs or something had fallen off a far wall. This I equate with soundstaging as well...the ability to meet the distance of certain sound projections when called for.

Yes if you listen to a chambre piece...you will be on the lap of some hotty flautist (USC Goose loves this apparently ) but that really doesn't mean the soundstage is this 2 dimensional wall strapped to your ears...if you liked the SR60/Sr80 soundstage...then your jaw will drop to the floor with the RS-1's...cause in comparison to the mighty 3d field of RS-1's the SR80's fall quite short.

With all that said...the Sony's do have the best wide soundstage of the bunch...HD600's coming in second etc...

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Powerful lower mids (I want the brass to sound terrifying).

Well, like any top tiered phone...the amp will push the headphone...so yes without a really good amp the RS-1's have a better chance at outperforming the others...but you may feel like you have lackluster bass without a proper high current amp. RS-1's have excellent controlled bass, if not somewhat bumped in the upper bass, lower mids....Even though I own the vaunted HP-1's...RS-1's I love because they completely master electronica...cause of the bass

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Don't even approach RS-1's if you want this...they are some of the most extended phones around and the treble has been called forward. Then again...ditto ro CD3000's....so you will be sitting with HD650's here.

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An overall realistic presentation (I hear lots of live music so I can tell if it is not being honest)

Well if you can get over the fact you are on stage with the musicians...then RS-1's will do very well for you. The timbre, PRaT, balance...all very very pleasing to the ear and as a musician...I can tell you that woodwinds and strings sound MARVELOUS with the RS-1's.


As for heroic....Grado should have that as their company motto.

Czilla,

Although the RS-1's will shake you with their bass I wouldn't call their presentation realistic. I find the bass to be too exaggerated and the highs to be too bright to be realistic. Detailed they are, and also a fun headphone to listen too. However, I couldn't live with them in the long run.

It sounds like the HD-650's will be a good match for you.

Agree agree agree agree!!!!!!!! You will never get a satisfactory answer because you are RIGHT!

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*shrug* They could well have put a capacitor inside the Equinox to tame the 'midbass hump', that would be audible, no problem

And about driving the Sony CD3000 and the Senn HD650, here's the customary advertisement for using your loudspeaker amp to drive them--power in spades, just need an adapter to channel their full potential *see signature below*

I can deal with extended highs. So are the RS1s for me?


I am worried I won't hear a difference between the HD650s and HD600s with my current system.

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Not owning / trying premium cables naturally makes you a sceptic. Perhaps less vent, more experience eh?


I don't think the standard cable is that bad but it's simply that others seem to improve the performance of the HD600 quite considerably. So it's not really a case from bad to good but from good to ****ing fantastic.


Going back to the topic, from what Jan Meier said about the HD650 (and by long searching, his opinion is the one that tracks my opinions about the phones which he has written about the best) I would have to say the CD3000. Trebles can be slightly harsh, more so than the RS-1 certainly but I don't think the RS-1 will give you any of your core requirements. The HD650 could do, but in this case the DT880 may be a better buy. However I don't consider the 880 any less extended than the CD3K.

Would something like a Stax Classic System be better for me?

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Yah I know... I didn't think a single mention would hurt. It's not something I usually talk about, and in fact I don't even do them myself -- I'm just skeptical as hell that a piece of wire could make such a difference, unless it's (intentionally) "electrically non-neutral."
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Yeah, it probably has some ridiculously high capacitance or some such, that acts as a $200 graphic equalizer for the Senns. Just my opinion -- I haven't tested the cable, but I invite you to do so (is it OK to mention doing measurements and tests, or should I limit that to the DIY forums?).
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Probably because of their high impedance, which doesn't match well with a lot of amps (many of which have a decidedly non-zero output impedance). If you want to blame the headphones, be my guest... I don't perceive any suckout or veil (see my avatar), and don't see any such thing reflected on properly done frequency graphs, except for the well known ~8.5KHz dip. I'm not even sure what "suckout" is, to tell you the truth... are you talking about a dip in midrange response?

Hey Fewtch, I am a Senn fan too even though they are not my primary headphones. I have had the HD-600 for 4 years and I too think it gets a bad rap on Head-Fi.

The 600 with the stock cable is a great headphone. The 600 with the Cardas cable is an *awesome* headphone, as long as you have reasonable equipment to showcase their performance. With my Gilmore V2 and a good CD player, it opened up the sound so that ambient details in the recording were more apparent. It was like focusing a lens on the recording so that you can see it more clearly. Instrument separation was better and soundstage and air around the instruments were brought into focus. I think the fact that the midrange is clearer than the cable improves what some see as a fault in the Sennheiser headphones.

The Cardas cable does not act as a tone control as you suggest. I think significant capacitance would do more to create an unfocused sound rather than a tone control. The Cardas cable for me represented a genuine and immediately noticable improvement in the sound quality of the Sennheiser headphones. Head-fiers list the cable as a must buy since it represents a significant improvement in the sound quality.