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Multi-IEM Review - 352 IEMs compared (Pump Audio Earphones added 04/03/16 p. 1106) - Page 181

post #2701 of 16802
Quote:
Originally Posted by Anaxilus View Post


I stand by my comments and weight the natural sound of the DBA over the more clinical and technical performance of the ER4.  If you can provide a philosophic basis for how you weight one metric over another feel free.  Many phones excel at putting checks in boxes.  My highest weighted criteria is how a phone sounds compared to how my ears hear without phones.

 

I think ER4 is just really revealing. Pair it with a high quality warm, musical source and it will sound warm and musical.

post #2702 of 16802
Quote:
Originally Posted by Pianist View Post

I think ER4 is just really revealing. Pair it with a high quality warm, musical source and it will sound warm and musical.


It is, but I think the DBA is more so taken into context of what I said.  It's easier for me to differentiate sources than w/ the ER4S IMO.  Pair the ER4S w/ the DACPort and it will sound warmer than the DBA-02.  Fyi, the DACPort is not warm at all.  Not that my IERM cares either way.   

 

post #2703 of 16802
Quote:
Originally Posted by mcnoiserdc View Post

@ Pianist, you seem a bit too agressive... I mean the guy rates the earphones according to his hears and knowledge, and when you add that to the fact that the sound is "subjective", your objection makes little to no sense...

Well, if this was just some 1000 word review, I wouldnt be complaining. But Jokers comparison seems to become more and more of a reference on head-fi for comparing IEMs and one of the first reviews a newb looking for IEMs is likely to read. So I think it is very important for this grand effort to be as objective as possible. I am just providing some ideas on how to improve it and make it more helpful to readers, that is all. I think the rating system should be abolished because it is too subjective and can often give a wrong impression that one IEM is better than another on a subconscious level, even if the person is consciously aware that sound is all subjective.

post #2704 of 16802

Damn you Huddler!


Edited by Anaxilus - 4/25/11 at 3:02pm
post #2705 of 16802


 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Pianist View Post

Hey Joker. I think DBA-02 is probably rated too highly. I don't think it deserves to be rated above RE252, e-Q7 and ER4S and RE262. I know you may prefer them more, but I think you should be a bit more objective. You reviews are excellent though, just don't necessarily reflect the rating well. I would place all of the aforementioned IEMs on par because I think that choosing between them is just a matter of personal preference. If you have strong reasons why you think that DBA-02 actually objectively beats all of them, then you should state it in your review. Personally, I can easily say that ER4S is more neutral and accurate than DBA-02, which is a bit too bright by comparison. I can also say that ER4S extends deeper in the low end and its low end is tighter and more defined than that of DBA-02. I think e-Q7 has smoother, better textured mids than DBA-02 and tighter, better textured bass as well. I think RE252 is more neutral than DBA-02 and the RE262 has smoother mids and much better dynamics than DBA-02. So overall, I don't see how DBA-02 can be rated higher overall. Is it the best all arounder? I don't think so because its treble can be slightly too bright, the bass is not always as defined as I would've liked and the compressed dynamic range works better with some music than other music.

 

Actually, I would drop ratings altogether. I think that sound is too subjective to be rated on a scale like this. You should just describe the sound of a 'phone and what you feel it does well and doesn't do well and then let the reader decide for himself whether it may be better than some other 'phone you described before based on your description.


Sounds like sour grapes to me. Telling other people what they should hear and then when Joker doesn't match your opinion, he needs to let people decide for themselves. A bit hypocritical maybe. From what I have read, one person does present his opinion and lets people decide for themselves and the other doesn't quite practice what they preach in that regard.

 

Each persons opinion only counts for so much. Ears and gears, YMMV, etc. Joker, ClieOS, and others clearly state and acknowledge that these are their opinions based on their set-up and methods. Respect their opinions and big deal if they don't agree with yours. I like the DBA better than the CK10. Some, including Joker, don't. More people like the DBA over the RE252. So what!

 

IMO, Pianist, you've been around long enough to have gotten over the "my opinion is right and yours is wrong" thing by now. It is not an attack on you if someone hears something different esp. under a different set-up.

 

 

 

post #2706 of 16802
Quote:
Originally Posted by Anaxilus View Post




I stand by my comments and weight the natural sound of the DBA over the more clinical and technical performance of the ER4.  If you can provide a philosophic basis for how you weight one metric over another feel free.  Many phones excel at putting checks in boxes.  My highest weighted criteria is how a phone sounds compared to how my ears hear without phones.

 

Hell, I've seen people go on and on about the fruity notes of X wine over Y and blah, blah, blah.  By the time they're done w/ their pretentiousness I need a good freaking Scotch.  I'll take a Lagavulin over some hyped, watered down, grape juice anyday.  But that's just me.  Slightly OT.  tongue_smile.gif

 


Funny how we disagree about the relative frequency balance of the DBA-02 but agree on this part. Oh well. I wish I could hear the DBA-02 you guys are all hearing :(

 

post #2707 of 16802
Quote:
Originally Posted by jant71 View Post


Sounds like sour grapes to me. Telling other people what they should hear and then when Joker doesn't match your opinion, he needs to let people decide for themselves. A bit hypocritical maybe. From what I have read, one person does present his opinion and lets people decide for themselves and the other doesn't quite practice what they preach in that regard.

 

Each persons opinion only counts for so much. Ears and gears, YMMV, etc. Joker, ClieOS, and others clearly state and acknowledge that these are their opinions based on their set-up and methods. Respect their opinions and big deal if they don't agree with yours. I like the DBA better than the CK10. Some, including Joker, don't. More people like the DBA over the RE252. So what!

 

IMO, Pianist, you've been around long enough to have gotten over the "my opinion is right and yours is wrong" thing by now. It is not an attack on you if someone hears something different esp. under a different set-up.

 

 

Ok, when one says that he prefers this IEM over that IEM, that's one thing, but when one says that this IEM is a 9.4/10 and that one is a 9.5/10, that's completely different. It's just way too precise to judge the subjective perception of sound in this way. I mean in the above case, you could say that they are too close to make any objective claims about which one is better. But what about 9.3/10 vs. 9.6/10? Is the one rated at 9.3 really better than the one rated at 9.6, or they are just too close to tell? And what about 9.2 vs. 9.7? Just when can one draw the line and say that this IEM is indeed in better than that one overall, based on such a rating? Therefore, I think that rating IEMs in this way is very unconvincing and only confuses things. I think Joker's older rating of 0.5 point increments was more reasonable, because sound cannot be judged so precisely. But even that is too much I think.

 

I don't understand your claim that I am telling others what they should be hearing. I always put "IMO," "to my ears," etc in all my posts to indicate that it is just my opinion and that I am not forcing people to take it as facts. I am not stupid and I understand that sound is very subjective and that I am not God with golden ears and that my opinion is not the only right one. Also, it's not my opinion that DBA-02 is not better than e-Q7 or RE262 - it's a fact because there are people who prefer e-Q7 and RE262 to DBA-02 and to them DBA-02 is not better.

 

Also, if I don't always practice what I preach that sure doesn't mean that what I preach is wrong. We are all humans and we can all be overtaken by emotions and do irrational things.


Edited by Pianist - 4/25/11 at 4:27pm
post #2708 of 16802
I think he's remained pretty objective with his reviews. The ratings are comparative, not empirical, so phones with 9.4 and 9.5 may be essentially on the same level, but the 9.5 just barely edges out the 9.4 in areas he thinks are important. I think he said when he switched to the .1 system that it was because there were too many earphones at the top all around the same level, 9.3 and 9.5 don't necessarily mean that the 9.5 is better, and that he just wanted to give the ratings a bit more detail.
The first statement in the review works pretty well:
Quote:
This thread contains concise observations on IEMs in my possession. It is meant to be a quick reference for those in need of earphone recommendations or a start-off point for research into IEMs. The observations reflect my personal experience with each earphone and should be taken as such - audio, after all, is extremely subjective.
post #2709 of 16802
Quote:
Originally Posted by rymd View Post

I think he's remained pretty objective with his reviews. The ratings are comparative, not empirical, so phones with 9.4 and 9.5 may be essentially on the same level, but the 9.5 just barely edges out the 9.4 in areas he thinks are important. I think he said when he switched to the .1 system that it was because there were too many earphones at the top all around the same level, 9.3 and 9.5 don't necessarily mean that the 9.5 is better, and that he just wanted to give the ratings a bit more detail.
The first statement in the review works pretty well:
 

Ok, so all the 9s are pretty much top tier, the 8s are near top tier, the 7s are midrange, etc, while the differences between the levels are more personal preference. Well, that makes sense I guess. Maybe I was a bit too harsh indeed. Still, I find this whole 9.4, 9.5 rating a bit too detailed. I think it will be better if the rating is dropped and the 'phones are just classified by tier and price range.
 

 

post #2710 of 16802

I think you are taking this ratings thing too seriously, Pianist.

 

I have a very similar preference to Joker and hence I tend to agree with his SQ ratings more than you do. There are also IEMs like SM3 & UM3X, which Joker does not like as much personally, but still awarded a higher rating. I think he is doing a fine job objectively. There is no need to drop the rating just because you or I have a disagreement with it.

post #2711 of 16802

Hi I am new to HeadFi and custom IEM in general Im looking for a entry level custom IEM and the X1 from kozee looks like a strong contender can anyone recommend any other single driver solution from  any other custom IEM manufacture 1964-S, Alien Ears(C1000) , DRM, Challenger series from ear plug store etc... 

post #2712 of 16802
Quote:
Originally Posted by esanthosh View Post

I think you are taking this ratings thing too seriously, Pianist.

 

I have a very similar preference to Joker and hence I tend to agree with his SQ ratings more than you do. There are also IEMs like SM3 & UM3X, which Joker does not like as much personally, but still awarded a higher rating. I think he is doing a fine job objectively. There is no need to drop the rating just because you or I have a disagreement with it.


Yes, for proof of his objectivity just look at the ratings for the Turbines. Totally not his sound signature at all but he's quite aware of that, and awarded a score accordingly. If I were scoring on objectivity alone I'd give the Turbines a 7 and the Coppers an 8, I just don't like the sound signature very much.

 

post #2713 of 16802
Thread Starter 
The thing with using a rating scale is that no matter how objective you think you are, there will always, always be someone who disagrees. If it were my intention for this thread to represent the opinion head-fi as a whole, I'd have to take that into account. However, there is already the Head Gear section and, for obvious reasons, I cannot modify my own ratings based on what someone else is hearing out of a particular earphone. I have no problem with open discussion of the ratings but I don't understand the end goal of these arguments.

The decimal system is here to stay - I do not pretend to be accurate in my ratings but a lot of deliberation goes not only into each rating but also into each time I change the scale around. Nowhere have I guaranteed that someone - or even the majority of listeners - will like a higher-rated earphone better than a lower-rated one. I used to say that personal preferences could shift the scale by a point or even more but there really is no range for the potency personal preference. This thread is fallible and should always be considered a work in progress. It is not a one-step, beginning-to-end guide for every IEM search but rather a one-page, 100,000-word resource containing reviews all written by one person with the same set of ears, same set of tracks, same gear, and same set of reference points. In that context, the scores act to drastically reduce the number of "so which is better" questions that occur when 162 individual earphone reviews are involved.

Quote:
Originally Posted by kanuka View Post

same requirments as before comfort/isolation. and but for these they should "shine with female-vocals". the Westone 1, dont seem to be comfort for me

thnks


Have to ask: what do you find uncomfortable about the W1?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Anaxilus View Post

Hell, I've seen people go on and on about the fruity notes of X wine over Y and blah, blah, blah.  By the time they're done w/ their pretentiousness I need a good freaking Scotch.  I'll take a Lagavulin over some hyped, watered down, grape juice anyday.  But that's just me.  Slightly OT.  tongue_smile.gif

 


Lovely. I wonder if wine aficionados would be similarly open-minded to the finer points of audiophilia tongue.gif.

Quote:
Originally Posted by UpTownsNV View Post

Hi I am new to HeadFi and custom IEM in general Im looking for a entry level custom IEM and the X1 from kozee looks like a strong contender can anyone recommend any other single driver solution from  any other custom IEM manufacture 1964-S, Alien Ears(C1000) , DRM, Challenger series from ear plug store etc... 


I think you are extremely unlikely to find someone who owns more than one single-driver custom - it just doesn't make sense - even less so than having multiple top-tier universals. For what it's worth I think the Infinity is the cheapest single you're going to find but you can see a list of all of them with pricing in average_joe's custom info thread.
post #2714 of 16802

the shape they have, sitting "stuck" in the ear , i feel that will be bothersome for me . same goes for the meelec m6


Edited by kanuka - 4/25/11 at 10:59pm
post #2715 of 16802
Quote:
Originally Posted by Pianist View Post

Ok, so all the 9s are pretty much top tier, the 8s are near top tier, the 7s are midrange, etc, while the differences between the levels are more personal preference. Well, that makes sense I guess. Maybe I was a bit too harsh indeed. Still, I find this whole 9.4, 9.5 rating a bit too detailed. I think it will be better if the rating is dropped and the 'phones are just classified by tier and price range.
 

 

Try convincing cigar or wine reviewers that their number systems are too detailed.biggrin.gif

More important are the notes (comfort, build quality, isolation, sound, microphonics, how it compares to model A, B, X etc.).
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