The Inherent Value of Burn-In
Oct 5, 2009 at 1:32 PM Post #316 of 372
Quote:

Originally Posted by Shike /img/forum/go_quote.gif
Judging by the tone and your equipment this is sarcasm. I'm treating it as such.

Sometimes knowledge, reason, and advice should be considered for good reasons. Saying it shouldn't is like spitting in the face of your parents for keeping you alive.


I think by "listen to advice" he meant follow that advice, not just consider it. That would be silly.
 
Oct 5, 2009 at 1:39 PM Post #317 of 372
Quote:

Originally Posted by haloxt /img/forum/go_quote.gif
Cable debates are good and should always be encouraged. We should just change the name of the sound science forum to cable debate forum. It keeps people busy so they don't discuss touchy topics like politics.

Also, green is the best color, a fact which can be verified empirically.


Heh, that's a nice way of saying: "You win, I lose."
 
Oct 5, 2009 at 2:00 PM Post #319 of 372
Quote:

Originally Posted by b0dhi /img/forum/go_quote.gif
I think by "listen to advice" he meant follow that advice, not just consider it. That would be silly.


Not my fault if what he said and what he meant were two different things. /shrug

Quote:

Originally Posted by haloxt
Maybe on planet Austria.


I, for one, welcome our new Austrian overlords.
 
Oct 5, 2009 at 2:01 PM Post #320 of 372
Quote:

Originally Posted by Shike /img/forum/go_quote.gif
It depends on the opinion. There are some opinions that are wrong, because they can be proven wrong. "In my opinion this cable makes a difference", but there's proof that shows the contrary. Considering that, the opinion is considered wrong factually.


You have it wrong here.

There isn't proof that shows the contrary. What there is, is a lack of proof supporting the original contention.

Absence of proof is not proof of absence.

se
 
Oct 5, 2009 at 2:07 PM Post #321 of 372
Quote:

Originally Posted by Koyaan I. Sqatsi /img/forum/go_quote.gif
You have it wrong here.

There isn't proof that shows the contrary. What there is, is a lack of proof supporting the original contention.

Absence of proof is not proof of absence.

se


There is proof of the contrary though. If I test cable one and cable two and there's no difference, that's a valid outcome that proves there's no difference between the two. If my hypothesis was "there's no measurable difference of these cables' properties" my hypothesis would be proven correct.
 
Oct 5, 2009 at 2:34 PM Post #322 of 372
Quote:

Originally Posted by Shike /img/forum/go_quote.gif
There is proof of the contrary though. If I test cable one and cable two and there's no difference, that's a valid outcome that proves there's no difference between the two. If my hypothesis was "there's no measurable difference of these cables' properties" my hypothesis would be proven correct.


You've changed horses.

You originally stated:

There are some opinions that are wrong, because they can be proven wrong. "In my opinion this cable makes a difference", but there's proof that shows the contrary.

Here you're saying there's proof to the contrary of any opinion that states a particular cable makes a difference.

Now you're talking about some specific instance, and have introduced the word "if." So there may be evidence to the contrary, but not necessarily so in every instance of "In my opinion this cable makes a difference" as your original statement states, or at the very least strongly implies.

se
 
Oct 5, 2009 at 3:44 PM Post #323 of 372
Quote:

Originally Posted by Shike /img/forum/go_quote.gif
It depends on the opinion. There are some opinions that are wrong, because they can be proven wrong. "In my opinion this cable makes a difference", but there's proof that shows the contrary. Considering that, the opinion is considered wrong factually. "In my opinion blue is the best color" is something that cannot be proven nor disproved and as such is a valid opinion. For some reason people believe perception is an excuse to hold any opinion they want. It's not and never has been. I don't coddle such notions and have no reason to.

It's not like I've insulted anyone here or broke any rules, so I don't know why my actions seem to be bothering you so much.


You personally do not "bother" me. The subject to which I referred was that of the "discussion" in this forum. The meaningless back and forth, while showing no respect for the other party is not what helps or edifies anyone in this thread. If the "discussion" degenerates to that point again, I will just close the thread. It's that simple. That's not punishing you, it punishes all of us. You can choose to be part of the solution or part of the problem. The choice is yours.
 
Oct 5, 2009 at 3:48 PM Post #324 of 372
Quote:

Originally Posted by Shike /img/forum/go_quote.gif
There is proof of the contrary though. If I test cable one and cable two and there's no difference, that's a valid outcome that proves there's no difference between the two. If my hypothesis was "there's no measurable difference of these cables' properties" my hypothesis would be proven correct.


If we're going to cite scientific tests, let's be precise. Cite real and specific evidence, otherwise, don't bring it up. If I recall correctly, the topic of this thread is whether or not burn in makes a difference. There have already been a few specific tests cited in this thread that have shown that some electro dynamic drivers do exhibit characteristic and measurable break in or burn in changes.

Make sense?

Thanks
 
Oct 5, 2009 at 5:33 PM Post #325 of 372
Quote:

Originally Posted by Koyaan I. Sqatsi /img/forum/go_quote.gif
Now you're talking about some specific instance, and have introduced the word "if." So there may be evidence to the contrary, but not necessarily so in every instance of "In my opinion this cable makes a difference" as your original statement states, or at the very least strongly implies.

se


There are tests between cables that show no difference. There isn't a test for every cable, but once again that's like saying gravity will not apply to everyone. If the cable was made of tin and a few gauges to high then I may concede the point . . . when talking audiophile cable though, that's hardly the case.

The point is we can test the cable and prove it makes no difference (as has been done with many cables). That will indeed prove the opinion factually wrong.
 
Oct 5, 2009 at 6:19 PM Post #326 of 372
Quote:

Originally Posted by Shike /img/forum/go_quote.gif
There are tests between cables that show no difference. There isn't a test for every cable, but once again that's like saying gravity will not apply to everyone. If the cable was made of tin and a few gauges to high then I may concede the point . . . when talking audiophile cable though, that's hardly the case.

The point is we can test the cable and prove it makes no difference (as has been done with many cables). That will indeed prove the opinion factually wrong.


To what specific tests are you referring?
 
Oct 5, 2009 at 8:48 PM Post #327 of 372
Quote:

Originally Posted by kwkarth /img/forum/go_quote.gif
To what specific tests are you referring?


Resistance, inductance, and capacitance. I had measured my Viablue interconnects against some of my monoprice cables during an electronics course. They were within margin of error, in other words no feasible difference. They might as well have been the same cable honestly.

If you want another one from a fairly respected source ESP


I guess I should preface my post that I assume when comparing cables they be properly built. If they don't have any shielding and are shoddy in construction they can sound different alright. When built to spec there should be a negligible difference at best though.
 
Oct 5, 2009 at 9:00 PM Post #328 of 372
Quote:

Originally Posted by Shike /img/forum/go_quote.gif
If you want another one from a fairly respected source ESP


Rod ate my dingo!
atsmile.gif


se
 
Oct 5, 2009 at 9:02 PM Post #329 of 372
Quote:

Originally Posted by Shike /img/forum/go_quote.gif
Resistance, inductance, and capacitance. I had measured my Viablue interconnects against some of my monoprice cables during an electronics course. They were within margin of error, in other words no feasible difference. They might as well have been the same cable honestly.

If you want another one from a fairly respected source ESP


I guess I should preface my post that I assume when comparing cables they be properly built. If they don't have any shielding and are shoddy in construction they can sound different alright. When built to spec there should be a negligible difference at best though.


Built to "spec?" Who's spec? Your tests? Can you produce your instrumentation and lab certifications? To what resolution did you measure? What was your "margin of error?" Where did you obtain information specifying what electrical parameter produced what audible change?

To how far do you extend this "there is no difference" net? Do you assume because you've "measured" no difference between two cables that there is no difference between any cables? Did you use time domain reflectometry to characterize your cables also, or do you assume those characteristics are out of the audible passband? I am curious how you came to adopt such a seemingly simplistic view of your audio world. Did someone else teach you this?
 
Oct 5, 2009 at 9:07 PM Post #330 of 372
Quote:

Originally Posted by kwkarth /img/forum/go_quote.gif
Did you use time domain reflectometry to characterize your cables also, or do you assume those characteristics are out of the audible passband?


A TDR?

eek.gif


se
 
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