Hello everyone,

the following is in regard to the optical S/PDIF connector of this player. Since it was often recommended as a cheap transport going up to 192 kHz / 24 Bit, I decided to get one to feed my DAC1. Due to some tests which were already done published on the Benchmark Wiki, I decided to contact Elias from Benchmark to get further information. While kindly replying, he preferred it to get this made public so anyone may be able to benefit from this information.

So - as an intoduction our correspondence so far:

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Hi Elias,

it's been some time again meanwhile ...

Searching for an economical way to feed the DAC1 up to 192kHz, I purchased this often recommended Panasonic DVD-Player.

Maybe you remember my question about my (older) DAC1 and if it supports 192kHz via Toslink? You said some were upgraded in this regard. So from my test, mine seems to go fine with it.

However, what keeps me wondering is that you and your team claimed that this player wouldn't support 192kHz via the Toslink connector according to the following sources:

http://extra.benchmarkmedia.com/wiki...asonic_DVD-S47

AIX - Benchmark Media

I've set the maximum sample rate to 192kHz in the menu of the player and it seems to work flawlessly. To be honest, I'm not totally sure if i'm actually listening to 192kHz, but at least, when playing a DVD-Audio providing material with this rate ("The Alan Parsons Project - The Turn of a friendly Card" for instance), my external M-Audio Transit USB (going up to 96kHz/24Bit) isn't able to sync to the stream anymore while the DAC1 has no problem with it except the path seems to be more prone to errors at this rate.

So the question is: How did you came to be result that this player wouldn't support 192kHz optically? Did you get no signal at all or was it compromised in any way?

Thank you in advance for clearing this up for me.

Kind regards,

little-endian

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You've got a great DVD transport! Great job finding one!

The optical output of this player will stream at 192 kHz, but it has regular data dropouts. Its performance is very inconsistent. This is why you get regular errors when using this transport at 192 kHz.

I recommend using the coaxial output of this transport into the DAC1. The performance is very consistent.

Thanks,
Elias

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Well, I'll continue here then:

Yep, I specially had a look at this particiular player. Got it for 40 EUR via eBay. Not bad for a source capable of delivering up to 192 kHz / 24 Bit without truncating or resampling, is it?.

Your statement about the inconsistency at 192 kHz is interesting. I can relate to this when using a longer optical cable (10 m). Through this, the error LED lights up sometimes. However, when using a very short one (< 1 m) like right now, I don't see the LED lightning up at all, also over a longer period nor do I hear any dropouts in the sound. Seems to work just fine for me with short cables. This is what I meant by "more prone to errors".

So the question arises: Can one be sure that the DAC1 was able to receive all the data without any error when the LED doesn't show any error? If you remember - I own the older model, not the USB one. And from what I can tell, the LED reacts VERY fast. Even slightest dropouts seem to be indicated. But you as the technician will of course be able to tell this better.

The other result in the table which seems odd to me is the one under the "DVD-Video Performance". There, it states that 48kHz/24Bit Audio of DVD-Video would be resampled to 96 kHz thus being not transparent. Which output setting was chosen for this test? What if one limited the rate to 48 kHz in the menu? Will one get the 1:1 data then?

little-endian, do you know if there are any other models that support 24/192 S/PDIF output without downsampling, or is the DVD-S47 a rarity?

This is the first I'm hearing that the optical connection will support 192kHz. Up til now, what I've read on the AIX site (as shown in the link you provided) is that only the coax connection does so. Quote:



My Panasonic DVD-F86 also does this. I think there is a slightly newer F87 model that also does/did. Not sure about any other past models, but I know the current models don't.

So, here are the current possible options for high-res DVD-Audio playback:

1. Universal audio player's multi-channel analog outputs.
2. i-Link/Firewire/IEEE1394-style interface from DVD player to a capable HT receiver.
3. HDMI 1.2a to a capable HT receiver.
4. Unmodified S/PDIF from certain players to any DAC that supports 24-bit/192 kHz.

It's nice to have options.

I'm just hoping that someone will eventually write a simple program capable of ripping DVD-Audio to multi-channel WAV/AIFF. Then we'd have another option.

Oh yeah, it seems to me that Elias was right that there is a public interest of this. Glad to see, so here we go:

Quote:



Per se, there is nothing special about this model but as far as I know, it isn't produced anymore in the meantime so you may have a look at eBay as well to find some cheap one capable of doing this. I couldn't find any dealer here in Germany who would still sell this player, at least.

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Yes, because of this I was quite surprised as well when I had just given it a try. However, that fact was never seriously denied but rather doubt. Also the manual of the player says nothing about the capability of the optical output. They just state in general: "check for limitations of the device connected to the coaxial or optical port and choose the maximum sample rate of the PCM signal" (translated from German since the manual offers no English for some weird reason). No word about that the optical output would dismiss above 96 kHz.

Since I have no device capable of recording 192 kHz, I cannot check if all the data is sent properly, hence the question to Elias in regard to the reliability of the DAC1's error LED.

Another hint: For the ones who own a Panasonic player willing to test the optical way up to 192kHz but without a DVD-Audio with the corresponding material ready to hand, you may try to enable the function "Multi Remaster 1-3" on any CD or DVD. The manual even states that in this mode, the audio is provided via S/PDIF at the maximum sample rate selected unter "PCM Digital Output". Normally, resampling is nothing one would like to have in conjunction with an external DAC but in this case, it's enough to check the transmission path.

Actually, I just checked the manual for the F84/86/87 series, and it doesn't have an optical-out - only a coaxial digital-out.

I guess only the S47 has the distinction of having both connectors.

To the best of my knowledge, Toslink optical is limited to 96kHz. I have never seen a source's specs say it is capable of outputting higher than 96kHz through optical. Perhaps it is a limitation in the bandwidth ability of Toslink.

But it sounds like now players are making it available? You should hook the cable up to an optical in on a soundcard and see what the sample rate syncs at.

@IPodPJ

Well, I'm not aware of Toshiba's standard in detail but the following in general:

The "dogma" that Toslink wouldn't support 192 kHz seems to widely persist and is a typical example for outdated information floating around.

From the frame layout of S/PDIF, actually only the wordlength is limited since more than 24 Bit would require a change of the syntax. However, the possible sample rate is limited only by the available bandwidth of the channel. Similar to video transmissions, the higher the used frequencies, the more they are prone to suffer loss in quality. That's why, it is recommended to keep the V-Sync as low as possible when using a LCD, for instance.

Assuming the receiver doesn't care about a bit jitter, in the case of S/PDIF, it is sufficient if the data can be reconstructed without errors, because the actual information is digital.

If you refer to the manual of the Benchmark DAC1, you'll see that newer versions are definately able to process up to 192 kHz through the optical input.

Monitoring the signal will be difficult with simple consumer soundcards. Although mine (Envy24HT-S chipset) should be able to accept 192 kHz I/O optically, it is in fact even to stupid for plain 44.1 kHz / 16 Bit (missing / repeated samples occur).

Just to be clear... These Panasonic players are not capable of passing bit-perfect digital audio via S/PDIF if the DVD-Audio disc has copy protection (as most of them do), correct?

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Quote:



modern TOS optical can support 24/192.

And the few Pana products, including the S47, that could output 24/192 via coax under .....ahem... pretty much any circumstances.... were indeed a known anomaly in the world of consumer playback equipment.

A part of the issue referenced in this thread is historical, having to do with evolution of the optical transmit & receive circuits; not only their technical limitations, but also their cost as well as overall product cost of optical data transport implementation (remember things like the better optical fibre which was needed to pass 192 in early days, not something which would be thrown in the box with a 79$ consumer player). The Pana S47 is quite a few years old...the last one of mine purchased was just as they went out of production, its manufacture date is early 2004. So, it is a product of a time when there was far less business motivation / market need for 192 in consumer equipment...

hence, a combo of historical issues in timing / cost-effectiveness / technology evolution.

Even in the pro equipment space (where there is still spirited debate about need or lack thereof for rates above 96), it has only been reasonably recently that 24/192 S/PDIF has been available cost-effectively. In DACs, Benchmark was one of the early players in the "sub-1000$" market emergence; they and a few others started with S/PDIF allowed at 96 and made 192 available (Anecdotally, I'll mention that I have an early-generation DAC1 which was later factory-upgraded in 2006 to be 192-capable via the coax input; TOS input signal capability was not upgradeable past 96 for what I was told were circuit-related reasons similar to above).

You'll probably notice that these days standalone DACs are generally capable of handling 192 inputs (the market need/ cost point equation pretty much dictates it everywhere) and it's become more cost-effective to do so; but ie computer interfaces that reliably support 192 are somewhat rare (not everyone can afford Weiss or even high-end MOTU ). Again, the functionality / cost / market size tradeoff at play. There are some superb products with excellent 24/192 converters which however only support S/PDIF I/O up to 96 (ie some MOTU).

The S47 is now one of several 24/176 & 24/192 disc playback sources I can use to feed various DACs incl the DAC1, as well as an RME Fireface 400 (one of the very few lower-cost interface solutions which is natively 24/192-capable for S/PDIF both coax & TOS optical). I primarily use AES-3id BNC, & AES/EBU balanced connections; but also use TOS optical between some units as a routing option.

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Does this include digital transmission of copyrighted/watermarked discs? It's clear from this thread that the player can pass 24/192 output, but not clear if that applies to the majority of DVD-A discs, since most commercial releases have security measures. Posts about the Panasonic players on other forums seem to imply that they are no different from any other DVD player, and that there never was a loophole where a manufacturer didn't follow the security standards (hence my confusion).

Hi infinitesymphony,

nice to see that this thread is still alive (although Elias has not replied yet, na na na ~).

To answer your questions about this player I'll tell you about my experiences:

When playing unprotected DVD-Video (the so-called 'DAD's from "Classic Records" for instance or DVD-Audio (some albums from Alan Parsons in 192/24), the player does indeed output the full sample rate without any resampling.

However - and that really sucks - when it comes to commercial protected discs, the audio is downsampled according to the player's manual, at least (no tried yet, since no original here so far except an unprotected DVD-Video playing at 96/24).

Now I thought "hey, who cares? I'll buy the original DVD-Audio, decrypt them on the PC without caring about stupid restrictions". But guess what. When watermarking is used, the player will recognize this and stop playback after about 10 seconds.

Great - hence there is no regular way to play discs one total legally owns at the full rate. This is so stupid than I don't know how to express this in full detail. Such things make be very angry because there's simply no rational reason. I don't think that audiophiles are the type copying discs or using file sharing that much. Simply ridiculous.

There might be a work around, though. As far as I know, player will check for watermarking in DVD-Audio mode only. When it comes to DVD-Video, they simply don't except that crap. Now I thought about to create a DVD-Video containing a 192 kHz PCM track from an decrypted DVD-Audio. This wouldn't fit the DVD-Video specs of course (96kHz is the maximum here), but it might be worth to give it a try; maybe it will work.

If you have further questions, don't hesitate to ask.

little-endian

Thanks for the confirmation, little-endian... That's unfortunate news. Since there isn't much interest in the DVD-A format, no one has created a simple method for losslessly ripping the discs. I think it still involves using several command-line programs, then reassembling the resulting individual channels in a surround-capable audio editor. Not exactly like backing up a regular DVD.

The only commercial releases I've encountered that have had unprotected high-res content have been the ones from the band Porcupine Tree, which include 24/48 PCM 2.0 (DVD-Video compatible) streams. The rest of my DVD-As have the stereo layer in MLP, presumably for copy protection in addition to saving some space. But at least the PT stuff was easy to back up... I think I used the free trial of Xilisoft DVD Audio Ripper, but I'm sure it's possible with freeware as well.

Well I think the "silver bullet" would be a cheap USB to S/PDIF converter able to output 192kHz/24Bit streams. Even if specific drivers were required I wonder why none seems to be available.

Buying professional equipment is not the way to go for me because then I'd have to pay for decent converters as well for nothing.

But wouldn't that require the discs to be ripped already? The only way to play back a DVD-A disc on a computer at the moment is to either rip it beforehand, and/or use a hacked version of a certain DVD-A-capable software DVD player.

I guess there's no simple way to get lossless copyrighted DVD-A content to an external DAC, at least until DACs start supporting HDMI 1.2a or higher (if they ever do).