I firmly believe it really doesn't matter. I don't live my life in hope of a reward, nor do I live it in fear of eternal punishment. I figure the only thing I can really do is live the way I feel is best.

I guess what it really comes down to is that I don't trust myself to have an opinion on the essence of the universe.

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Ulcers are psycho-somatic in origin. I'm not trying to minimize their seriousness. This person's response was just an example of the power of the placebo effect. All those faith healers are proven to be phonies (duh!). They have screeners at the door that ask you about your illness and they pass that info on to the preacher later through an earpiece. he magically knows your name and what ails you, then he lays his hands on you. People "faint" after being touched because audience plants in league with the preacher faint first and that shows the people who came in off the street what is supposed to happen, and bang, they "faint" too. Faith healing is all placebo and all in your mind, but if it cures what ails you, great. That doesn't prove these so-called "faith healers" are real, though, just that the placebo effect is real.

Mark

"I don't think it's ********, but i think a lot of ailments are man-made (stomach ailments caused by stress, headaches caused by stress, etc etc), meaning that i think stress is all mental and when you seek something to comfort you, like religion, it will free you of that stress because that person views religion as his/her salvation (or headphones!). Again, it's all mental."

Thats every skeptics point. The reason being, its the closest thing to being valid. Doesnt mean its valid. Every non-skeptics point is that it is far from just mental. An issue that will be ongoing forever in our future.

"Ulcers are psycho-somatic in origin. I'm not trying to minimize their seriousness. This person's response was just an example of the power of the placebo effect. All those faith healers are proven to be phonies (duh!). They have screeners at the door that ask you about your illness and they pass that info on to the preacher later through an earpiece. he magically knows your name and what ails you, then he lays his hands on you. People "faint" after being touched because audience plants in league with the preacher faint first and that shows the people who came in off the street what is supposed to happen, and bang, they "faint" too. Faith healing is all placebo and all in your mind, but if it cures what ails you, great. That doesn't prove these so-called "faith healers" are real, though, just that the placebo effect is real."


A lot of people will dis-agree with you. Many will agree though. I happen to fall in the catagory of dis-agreeing. Its very argueable what has and hasnt been proven, I find it odd you throw the (duh!) in there ... Uncalled for if you ask me... Especially after the fact that it contradicts the idea of the story, that obviously i beileve in. Its like your calling me dumb to my face, Duh!.. Please dont..

I wont even comment on the rest... Obviously this is an argueable subject ... with valid points from both sides. The thing is i didnt throw up a flag for an arguement. I was just sharing a story. If my story bothers you fine... Glad you let me know.. Ill stay away from this thread now.

Don't live the way other people tell you to. Live the way you know is right. Don't depend on on other people too decide for you. Be your own man.

Sorry about the "duh", you're right that wasn't necessary.

Mark

Life is in your mind. That's why you need to learn to controll your mind. Try meditation, it make your life better Vipassana Meditation
You can try this, it's free but the space is limited.

sigh... when will people learn?

torgon owns you.

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Just out of curiosity, did your dad immediately go to the emergency room to see if the ulcer had indeed vanished? I remember reading books on hypnotism as kid (during elementary school I had a major fascination with the topic and swallowed everything the local library had on the topic), and one of the anecdotes in one book was how some children could undergo major dental work without anesthesia simply by visualizing a "switch" that controls the pain and turning it off, in their mind. (yes this is anecdotal evidence, I guess, but the text in question was written by a hypnotherapist for fellow practitioners IIRC, so I'll assume it's a fairly reputable source.)
I suspect what occured was a similar event that removed the pain of the ulcer in the short term, and the power of suggestion reduced his stress level in the long term enough that the ulcer disappeared. In a way, I guess you could say the faith healer *did* heal your dad!

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Just out of curiosity, did you anticipate that something holy/special would happen when the pastor laid his hands on you?
The human mind is quite surprising; this sounds similar to feelings I've read of people experiencing during a really good massage (!) or meditation, though minus the laughing. (apparently some people can orgasm during meditation, without any 'stimulation' that you'd think of... though that's a topic for another thread!)



By the way, Skippy, WHO THE HECK IS TORGON ALREADY?!

"Just out of curiosity, did your dad immediately go to the emergency room to see if the ulcer had indeed vanished? I remember reading books on hypnotism as kid (during elementary school I had a major fascination with the topic and swallowed everything the local library had on the topic), and one of the anecdotes in one book was how some children could undergo major dental work without anesthesia simply by visualizing a "switch" that controls the pain and turning it off, in their mind. (yes this is anecdotal evidence, I guess, but the text in question was written by a hypnotherapist for fellow practitioners IIRC, so I'll assume it's a fairly reputable source.)
I suspect what occured was a similar event that removed the pain of the ulcer in the short term, and the power of suggestion reduced his stress level in the long term enough that the ulcer disappeared. In a way, I guess you could say the faith healer *did* heal your dad!"

No, my dad actually hates going to docters and such. It never hurt again... He has had other stress related problems since then but not stomach/ulcer problems. Not denying it could have been just a coincidence. Just seems unlikely, thats why the story is special. To me at least...


"Just out of curiosity, did you anticipate that something holy/special would happen when the pastor laid his hands on you?
The human mind is quite surprising; this sounds similar to feelings I've read of people experiencing during a really good massage (!) or meditation, though minus the laughing. (apparently some people can orgasm during meditation, without any 'stimulation' that you'd think of... though that's a topic for another thread!)"

Its hard to explain the feeling... After it happened I read about a few pastors who would start laughing and get the feeling ... and not be able to stop for hours. Of course not wanting to stop... Its silently explained as somewhat of a gift from god... For those willing to accept it. Thats what i believe anyhow...

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I never said it was a coincidence, in fact I'd highly doubt it... I was only saying that the cure was probably for different reasons than a magical/mystical ability possesed by the healer. (You know, something that I just realized, who's to say the subconcious/placebo effect isn't a gift from a diety? It certainly is helpful sometimes!)

The mind is an amazingly open to suggestion. There is evidence that hypnotism isn't real, but people are instead just acting like they think hypnotized people would act.

The mind is so suggestable and is so interwoven with your body that if you truely believe something will have a certain effect, it more often than not will. This isn't just "oh, I feel better", you can give someone with high blood presure something and say it is a blood-preasure lowing drug that is 99% effective and their blood pressure will go down. Really freaky that your brain can fix something in your body just because it believes it is getting better.

Also if you concentrate and believe that you blood presure is going down, it does. (I use blood pressure in these examples because it is an easily measurable and relativly undisputed vital sign).

I find it odd that my "It doesn't matter" aproach hasn't been bashed. normally I get the "You'll go to hell" response.

Religion in a headphone forum...bad mojo...but I'll add my 2 cents....

Ulcers are actually caused by bacteria. They can be inflamed by stress and other mentally stimulated release of chemicals...but indeed, they are bacteria based.

Next?

Okay...aliens and stuff....not saying yes not saying no...but I read this book:

Rare Earth ISBN: 0-387-98701-0

and it definitely makes me doubt Sagan and his math skills. This is just playing devil's advocate again...

God on a whole? Some believe some don't. I do, and I hope to meet Him someday when I pass into the next life. I really hope He is as much into music as I am...I've heard and read He really loves the sound of angels singing. I could live with that for eternity...now, when they are not singing...can I use headphones to listen to some recordings? Hmmm....

I prefer you doubting about God. When someone will have a scientific proof of the existence of God, the word Faith will loose its meaning. Where there is scientific proof, there is no liberty anymore.

As a practicing catholic, I do believe in God. But I really don't want you to prove me His existence.

I do hope the angels choirs worth the Pascal's gamble, too.

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Matthew - using your own logic we should ignore you and do whatever we want! (Self-defeating view)


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CaptBubba,

I'm curious: Is there anything intrinsically wrong with living your life with the thought of a reward? Don't you work at work hoping to get a raise at some point? Or do you just work hard for working hard's sake? Don't you work hard at school to receive a good grade? Or do you just work hard at school for working hard's sake?

If mankind has instituted a system whereby evil is punished, justice, and good is rewarded, promotions, etc, why can't God have His own system for doing so after we die?

And, since you stated you don't trust yourself to have an opinion, why do you state yours right above that statement? You have an opinion, or worldview, about things, and live your life according to them. Whether you realize it or not. Your worldview is that you do what you feel is "best", and act accordingly.