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If I paid $3,000 rather than $200, I'd expect an improvement rather than a mere "difference."

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What about a "difference" that can't be discerned by anyone at all? I assume you think that, even though "some people" can't hear any difference between a $200 and a $3,000 CDP, others can. Do you have any evidence for this belief?

On the topic of the thread, amps, there is a strong case for believing that there is no meaningful difference at all: http://bruce.coppola.name/audio/Amp_Sound.pdf.

Fine;LOL...Listen to what you wish and can afford and having never known to hear anything better you're all set. Why even bother to come amongst others who have / can / and do to proclaim your tastes and beliefs hollering the pearls are fakes..... thanks for the laughs..... EOM

Yes, even on the measily 32 ohm Alessandro's of mine, an amp is necessary (to me). To each their own I suppose, but there's a lot more to be had with a good amp (not to mention a lovely source). It all comes down to what makes you happy, and from that I totally think I'm much happier with an amp than without.

~Tom

Everyone's ears are different, and everyone's preference is different. There is no golden audio system which is "perfect." The components in your system are either chosen because they match your personal hearing or because they pair well together.

If you grow up being colourblind like I did, you might have a different take on sensory perceptions. They're all subjective, and it's when people carry them into the realms of what seems like objectivity that you run into trouble.

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Nice elitist attitude.

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Yeah, everyone's different. Some people can hear that extra 5%, others can't. Some people perceive that 5% as minute, others perceive it as breath-taking. Some people think $3000 should yield a huge difference, others think it should just yield any improvement. Some people have huge wallets, others don't.

Shouldn't this be in the amps forum?

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Very true. I strive for the best I can within reason, since I'm not at a point in my life where I can even drop $700 on an amp I KNOW I'll like.

I was more responding to the claim that not having an amp is better since it colours the signal less, though.

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Great article, I have read similar reults with CDPs I firmly believe that the AMP is the least important factor in getting a good sound the tests prove that the differences are insignificant at best.

The source and the speakers/phones are what really matter
Even the source is debatable. 12k for a CDP I think not!!!!!!

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Unless perhaps you were ranking in 7 figures. Millionaires need toys too, you know.

OT: What is this ->

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I wouldn't call that elitist. I'd call it frustrated. Like debating with a brick wall frustrated.

This is why.

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You can hear the differences between CDP's?? When is the last time you heard a $3k+ CDP? Just curious.

You make quite a few, read way too many, assumptions with your posts in this thread. It seems to me like you're busy asking questions that you think you already know the answer to. It's almost as if you're asking them in a manner that shows you have made up your mind already, yet you're still asking away and telling people they are wrong and "crazy" for not providing you with your preconceived answer.

Maybe you are wrong about the whole thing? I assure you, you are. Take a Gilmore Lite and a Melos SHA-1, use the same cables, source, etc., and take a good hard listen for about 30 whole seconds. If you can't hear a vast, and I mean huge, difference there then like others have already said...you just saved yourself a bunch of time and money. If all you're going to do is compare a $100 CDP with a $300 CDP and say "there's not much of a difference", and then equate that the rest of the entire audio world...well that's just ignorant and terribly silly.

You won't know for sure until you test it out for yourself? Then why the constant doubt towards what the majority are telling you here?

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Lookit Vai, Most of us here are not running $2000 sources and 2000 amps driving 1000 headphones... I may challenge the "value' of doing so, but i would not insult those who do by telling them their amp makes an insignificant contrubution to that system and ANYONE who would listen to it! To do so would be revealing my own ignorance. I personally have very meager sources costs in the few hundred $, however being SACD and newer implimentation of the DACs used produces very "Good" sound. My other source is a sub $300 Squeezebox again with this past few years very "Good" DACs ...Nothing special. However, when I upgraded the amps (same sources) a whole other presentation of the same good sources was presented by the same $300 headphones. The potential was always present in both the sources & material played and the referance quality headphones. A huge difference, YES improvement of the systems sonics was and is being enjoyed. Fact!
Looking at the cost benefit this system is balanced slightly favoring the amps employed at a cost of $340 - $700 which allow the potential of the headphones to be maximised. So, at once I differ with your beliefs, because i do know better from experience, yet I also agree with you thousands spent on the source end should be looked at skepticaly because lower priced point contemporary technology can somewhat narrow the gap relatively inexpensivly. As in my case. I would never dismiss others experience telling me difrently in terms of how much better my assembled gears would sound with just another $600 DAC for instance, which is reasonable, or anothers choice of a $3000 CDP making a great many subtle neuanced differences to the experience they enjoy.

And you were right, i was somewhat trying to be rude because of your likewise rude uninformed experience and firmly held beliefs which also comes across as arrogance to others beliefs and truths. Now, if we can excuse each others humanity we can continue to achieve the same goal by helping each other with what we each know. Realizing there is a full range of what we yet know and especially what we prefer with the music choices for instance. Some of it sux by the musicians and the recording studios priorities on the "product". Yes, some music does have a greater effect and beauty with some choices amongst referance gears. Fact!
And I'm talking Greatful Dead here not chamber music either. Much better with my same gear other than the amp upgrades. Fact to anyone who would lend an ear to hear.

Best of luck in pursuit of these our common goals~

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Yes, of course.

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If your contention is that all CDP's sound the same, I'm not going to attempt to prove the contrary to you. It's ridiculous to make such a contention, particularly on this forum, for a whole host of reasons.

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No, there's merely a strong case for the proposition that, under the particular circumstances under which certain blind tests have been conducted, the people participating in the study could not hear differences between the particular amps being tested. One certainly can't conclude from such a study that a every headphone amp discussed on this forum sounds the same to everyone, or even that most headphone amps discussed here sound the same. Such a notion is ridiculous. Nobody who spends time listening to headphone amps under propoer conditions could reach such a conclusion, unless they have problems with their hearing or a lack of sufficient experience with high fidelity systems.

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One can't conclude for certain that every amp sounds the same, or near as. However, the pre-test comments of the "Believers" in that test sound disturbingly similar to comments made by several people on here about any number of amps.

Maybe they just picked a bad high-end amp in that test, and a difference can indeed be heard with other amps. But, as I said in my last post, let's see the proof. Do you have any evidence of an audible difference between any $5,000+ amp and any high street brand $250-$750 amp?

Saying "of course there is a difference," or "such a notion is ridiculous" or "you must have something wrong with your hearing" does not, I'm afraid, count as evidence.

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Looking to see the difference in terms of words you want to win a typical online arguement.

Whereas the proof and evidence you seek would be sharred, if asked to do so politly, at a meet and by your own ears. Presupposed your experience with whatever referance you historically are coming from has taught you the fine art of listening to music. Many of the members here have a background of music appreciation, at least by listening to referance grade gears playing material of recognised artist. And many are musicians with at least some instrument hands on experience knowing the live sound of a violin or acoustical guitar etc as a real referance...
First let us establish what is being listened to at its source, IE the music, a bastardized term as well as the product that claims its definition in this age of the business.
This is criteria for what a writer / reader on the internets would need to establish first when trying to argue what they don't hear or do hear.
Other than to say it is my experience all amps do have some distint differences and the fact that given a level of construction the more expensive ones do in fact sound better and that is why they exist in a capitalist system where only the better products that do preform stay in business. There is your evidence! Due to your own lack of experience you are assuming others ignorance based upon your belief and that is an insult to others experience and intellegence here and making yourself out to be incredible.

You may win the argument with these words in your own mind and perhaps that is the goal of these posts. But if you want the facts to decide for yourself, you simply need to come to a meet fully skeptical, and let your ear decide that which you say you seek.