Sound card vs USB DAC?
Aug 27, 2017 at 9:01 AM Post #31 of 44
Ok, so basically if speakers/monitors have unbalanced inputs and I want to connect them to a mobo or an internal soundcard, which have only unbalanced outputs, it's best to use the unbalanced connection instead of converting to balanced? I'm not missing out on an audio quality by using unbalanced connection compared to a balanced one? We're talking about small distances here (probably 1,5m lenght cable).

Yes that will work just fine. Converting it will add a lot of extra complexity and potential points of failure/problems, and in the best case scenario the result would be "no loss" compared to where you started out (with the SE connections), it would never "add" to it.
 
Aug 27, 2017 at 10:37 AM Post #32 of 44
^ Depends really on your speaker model. On the Yamaha HS speakers, if you have the subwoofer, you will input from the soundcard unbalanced, but the output will be converted to balanced to your speakers. If you don't have the sub, the RCA or 3.5mm to XLR cables that you see online are actually unbalanced with the one of the three pin serving is grounded to the other pin. In the case of Genelec monitor speakers, pin 3 is grounded to pin 1

"Audio input is via a 10 kOhm balanced female XLR connector labelled “INPUT”. An unbalanced source may be used as long as pin 3 is grounded to pin 1 at the unbalanced source connector (see Figure 2)."
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Sep 8, 2017 at 3:12 AM Post #34 of 44
USB dac all the way. The soundcard has always sounded artificial.
food for thought:
this confident post comes from how many tests with soundcards and DACs? were the soundcards the same price as the USB DAC? did you actually have a proper line out on your card, or maybe are you judging the cheap amp section of a computer and blaming the DAC for it?
 
Sep 11, 2017 at 10:26 AM Post #37 of 44
So just a little update fella's...... I decided to bite the bullet. I got a USB dac from SCHIT and their amp as well. Its the Modi/magni combo. I have it plugged into a DC powered USB hub to isolate its power source. I also picked up a HD 6xx from Massdrop in hopes to get a solid and full sound for gaming and some leisure listening every now and then. The only problem is the hd6xx won't ship till december so i picked up an hd558 to hold me over for now.

My first immediate impression is that i've been buying headphones based on recommendations of people and i've been underwhelmed by ALL of them. Sure, these etymonic pt4's have amazing highs and crystal clear bandwidth, and i absolutely LOVE that quality of them, but they have no base. They are so position sensitive that its really hard for me to position them proper to get a halfway acceptable base out of them. And even still, they leave a lot to be desired from lower frequencies. These HD558's, sound good, but not $80 good. They're worth a solid $40 in my opinion, even on this fantastic dac/amp setup. I still use my regular iphone earbuds whenever i get tired of the lackluster performance of certain aspects in these two headphones.

My second impression is now that i've got a pretty amazing dac setup, my music is now VERY bitrate dependant. Regular 128 bit stuff only sounds very marginally better than usual. While the lossless and 320 kbps stuff starts to sound great. Of course, i'm still pumping this stuff through "low end" headphones, but we shall see what the hd6xx is capable of when it gets here.

My third impression is that the schiit DAC setup has a much better dynamic range than my medium grade pci sound card. It is immediately obvious when comparing the two back to back. Is the sound quality higher and more crisp? I dunno, hard to tell through my hd558, but the frequency range is much larger which is a definate improvement. Not $200 worth of improvement..... but let's see what happens when i get my hd6xx
 
Nov 20, 2017 at 4:18 PM Post #38 of 44
So just a little update fella's...... I decided to bite the bullet. I got a USB dac from SCHIT and their amp as well. Its the Modi/magni combo. I have it plugged into a DC powered USB hub to isolate its power source. I also picked up a HD 6xx from Massdrop in hopes to get a solid and full sound for gaming and some leisure listening every now and then. The only problem is the hd6xx won't ship till december so i picked up an hd558 to hold me over for now.

My first immediate impression is that i've been buying headphones based on recommendations of people and i've been underwhelmed by ALL of them. Sure, these etymonic pt4's have amazing highs and crystal clear bandwidth, and i absolutely LOVE that quality of them, but they have no base. They are so position sensitive that its really hard for me to position them proper to get a halfway acceptable base out of them. And even still, they leave a lot to be desired from lower frequencies.

You are learning the biggest rule of this hobby. You have to filter everything you read. without knowing the recommenders' biases, you are just getting one random opinion. I hear it like you and think the Ety' also have no bass. Some folks like this but not me. And the second rule is there is no amount of reading that can possible substitute for hearing with your own ears!

These HD558's, sound good, but not $80 good. They're worth a solid $40 in my opinion, even on this fantastic dac/amp setup. I still use my regular iphone earbuds whenever i get tired of the lackluster performance of certain aspects in these two headphones.

My second impression is now that i've got a pretty amazing dac setup, my music is now VERY bitrate dependant. Regular 128 bit stuff only sounds very marginally better than usual. While the lossless and 320 kbps stuff starts to sound great. Of course, i'm still pumping this stuff through "low end" headphones, but we shall see what the hd6xx is capable of when it gets here.

You will realize, I hope, that even higher bit rate mp3 throw away music and the 650 is certainly capable of letting you know that when you compare lossless files to an mp3.

My third impression is that the schiit DAC setup has a much better dynamic range than my medium grade pci sound card. It is immediately obvious when comparing the two back to back. Is the sound quality higher and more crisp? I dunno, hard to tell through my hd558, but the frequency range is much larger which is a definate improvement. Not $200 worth of improvement..... but let's see what happens when i get my hd6xx


see comments embedded above in the quote

While the "sound quality is higher and more crisp" on the Schiit and that is probably a good thing, it is not the definition of dynamic range. Dynamic range is the spread in volume (decibels) between the quietest sounds and the loudest in a recording. Can better equipment reveal this, yes. but more important is how the recording was done. Most of today's music in the popular space is recorded with low dynamic range where all sounds are very close in volume with a range of 3db to 10 db difference.

Enjoy the new equipment and the 6xx when it arrives, it is nothing like the 558.
 
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Feb 9, 2024 at 7:47 PM Post #39 of 44
Some thoughts:

- "Virtual surround" is no longer tied to specific hardware solutions - Razer Surround Pro and Creative SBX3 are available as stand-alone software packages that will bring their respective headphone surround simulacra to any HDA-compliant audio device (this means basically everything). Alternatively, many games have built-in "headphone mode" which applies some degree of virtual surround (this varies heavily from game to game). There are also plenty of USB-based solutions from a wide range of manufacturers (e.g. Creative, Asus, Turtle Beach, Astro Gaming, etc) that offer various headphone surround simulacra in their drivers (e.g. DTS:X Headphone, Dolby Headphone, Creative SBX, etc), in addition to many surround sound receivers featuring Dolby Headphone functionality these days (this is a somewhat unwieldly option, but sometimes surround sound receivers can be had fairly cheap).

- Generally cheap PC speakers are limited mostly by being cheap PC speakers - soundcards for PCs have been largely "good enough" quality-wise since the early 2000s (when "they" started getting serious about multimedia, home theater, and eventually hi-fi), and modern cards have minimal disctinction between "mid range" and "high end" in terms of quality as either digital transports or analog line-out sources - usually the more premium cards (like say, Sound Blaster ZxR) distinguish themselves by offering built-in headphone amplifiers, more inputs/outputs, or bundling other "stuff" in the package (like a microphone). What I mean is, if you're just going to use this card as a digital S/PDIF source, or even as a stereo analog source, there's not a lot to be said for something like ZxR over the "base" Z model, and the same goes for the Asus Xonar and HT Omega cards too.

Overall I'd say "sound cards" have taken an awful rap over the last ten or so years, especially as hi-fi marketers have needed new and interesting ways to sell products to consumers new and old, and the "USB DAC" was born as a result of that (the short version: "USB DAC" is an inaccurate description - all of those USB devices are sound cards, but many of them don't offer much in the way of inputs or outputs, and some of them rely on generic drivers to further simplify things (which saves their manufacturers a ton of money on development and support)). Generally speaking, there's not a "significant good reason" to argue one way or the other here unless A) you're dealing with a mobile device wherein an internal PCI/PCIe card is out of the question or B) you're getting into nosebleed high end pricing (at which point we can start having estoeric arguments like: "can you *really* hear the difference and is that difference *really* worth the extra $10k?"). But as far as inexpensive USB audio devices vs PCIe or PCI cards, all of the above can offer great performance.

This isn't to say "sound cards" are beyond reproach - they have their own share of considerations, like expansion slot availability, reliance on (generally speaking) proprietary drivers, funkiness with said drivers, etc. This has all improved in leaps and bounds over the last 20 years, just as USB audio has also improved ("everything is better in the future"), but certainly there are understandable reasons where a basic USB audio device that relies on generic drivers may be preferable. My point is that we shouldn't generalize so aggressively one way or another, mostly because it comes down to arguing about the host interface as some sort of metric that can divine "fidelity" - its like debating if AGP or PCI Express will produce "higher quality graphics."

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I would heavily disagree with these assertions, mostly on logical and factual grounds. Some reasons why:

- The internal soundcard is also drawing power "via a DC source" and there's actually nothing that dictates said "DC source" for the external device will be less noisy (as some sort of generalization) than what's going on inside the PC. In most cases the cheap USB audio devices are actually drawing from the PC's internal power source, so you're dealing with the same PSU at the end of the day, but that 5VDC supply is coming through the USB circuitry, vs what's delivered to the PCIe (or PCI) slots. Modern computer PSUs tend to have very clean outputs (especially if you've got a high performance model from a fancy manufacturer), and modern motherboards tend to have good power sections on them too (especially if you've got a high performance model from a fancy manufacturer), so this is basically a moot point. If you're getting into an "externally powered" device (e.g. it comes with a wall-pack or plugs directly into the wall) now you're paying more (to provide that power source) and you're hoping that the manufacturer is including something that has better regulation, lower ripple, etc ("how much does this really matter in audible terms?" - it depends) than your PC's PSU. Usually wall-warts are going to be worse than what's in the PC, higher end devices with dedicated internal PSUs (and usually relatively large footprints and so forth) may swing this the other way, but you're still connecting to the PC electrically, so if there's lots of nastiness that doesn't magically go away because "its external" (unless of course, you're an advertiser).

- There is no "processing" in modern PC audio. It's all software based. This has been the way of things since Windows Vista. So you aren't "offloading" or "ditching" anything. You're just using USB in place of PCI or PCIe as a host interface to connect an audio controller/codec to the PC. That device, in turn, may have a DAC built-in (many USB audio controllers do, as they're designed as low-cost commodity products), or may interface to a separate DAC chip. This exists the same for PCI and PCIe cards too. Technically the internal cards benefit from lower latency and higher bandwidth connections to the system, but for basic playback at normal datarates (which includes gaming) that stuff generally isn't of significance (it does start to matter for music production though). So while you are moving the DAC out to whatever external interface, vs having it on an internal card, the merits of such a thing are, to put it lightly, debateable.

There are plenty of internal cards that measure more or less "flawlessly" (and I can cite this back over a decade if you're really interested), and in many cases they can post better measurements than many cheap USB devices. That doesn't mean you should generalize the other way, that "USB bad, internal good" - the point is that you shouldn't make such a generalization either way, because its not based on the whole picture.

Amplification (especially for hard to drive cans or speakers) is where things get more interesting. For USB bus powered devices, you're limited to a relatively modest 2.5W DC of power for a single port (500 mA @ 5V), whereas if the device brings its own power (so it only uses USB for data, and plugs into the wall on its own), it can draw "unlimited" power - so doing even a 100Wpc amplifier section isn't as much of a big deal, nor is needing higher supply voltages, or whatever else. This is one area where external devices have consistently been "ahead," and yet (in true consumer electronics fashion) probably the least talked about by marketers. Internal soundcards with built-in amps (which rely on the recent-ish generation of headphone-oriented chip amps from major manufacturers like TI or Maxim) have closed this gap somewhat, but even with the higher power available to PCI and PCIe devices, they will never fully compete with an external amplifier on a level playing field. For most headphones, however, the built-in amps are more than enough for regular usage (e.g. the Sound Blaster Z can put put around 250 mW/ch into 32 ohms - its not a ton, but its at least an order of magnitude more than most headphones need to get "quite loud").

As far as what should you buy - it really comes down to what you actually want, an external box, or an internal card. Either way, at around $50-100 there are plenty of good options. Creative has some USB devices that include a microphone and headphone amp, which could simplify life a bit in terms of connectivity, or you could go for an internal card from Asus for more like $50, and either rely on the fairly modest headphone amp available (the headphones you pick will determine whether or not this will be effective) or feed it into an external amp. Personally I'm a fan of "stand alone" headphone amplification (or amplification in general) so that you aren't chained to a source component just to have amplification for your headphones/speakers, so you can get whatever is the "best" source device and all it has to worry about is providing analog line-out at the end of the chain, and then the amplifier is an amplifier. But, that may be more "clutter" than your living space allows (and I certainly get that too), so all-in-one devices can be a godsend there.

Some cards to look at:
- Sound Blaster Z
- Xonar DGX and DSX

Some USB devices to look at:
- Sound Blaster Omni3D
- Xonar U7/U5

I haven't personally auditioned all of the above, but functionally any/all would satisfy your needs. Another thing to consider, if you are coming from a desktop PC (especially if you have PCI slots avialable) - internal soundcards generally don't hold their value very well, so you can usually find some pretty nice boards on the used market if you don't mind them being a few years old, like the X-Fi cards, the Asus Xonars, the Razer AC-1, among various others. Be cognizant of driver support if you go digging though (especially with PCI cards - some of this stuff may date back to the late 90s or early 2000s and have no modern driver support), and I'd also (unfortunately) say be leery of the Auzentech cards - they have awesome hardware, but the company seems to have vanished, along with their website and driver downloads.

tl;dr: Generalizing USB vs "internal" is kind of fruitless - get a device that has the connectivity you need, don't fear (or be wowed by) lack of (or inclusion of) headphone surround as that can all be done by stand-alone software packages, and expect that good performance can be had from either internal or external solutions.

EDIT

This isn't the headphone section, but I wanted to comment on your cans for gaming too: the HD 580/6x aren't bad headphones at all (in fact, they're really very good), but if gaming is the primary focus, I'd probably save the bucks and go for the HD 59x or 55x which tend to have (from my recollection) a bit wider soundstage, and be a bit lighter - you sacrifice some detail and "absolute fidelity" but for gaming that's largely a moot point. I don't know what the Massdrop 6XX cost though, so if they're available at a killer price (like down there with the 558 or 595) that would be a serious contender too.

If not Sennheiser, the AKG 700-series are probably where I'd look next. IMHO they're better in terms of positional audio and "3D-ness" (what? its sort of a word...) but you give up some bass and some folks have an issue with their soundstage (specifically that it feels a bit artificially big). Either would be a great consideration. Beyerdynamic DT880s round out the "old school triple crown" and are a decent middle-ground in terms of "3D-nes" and "natural-sounding-ness" but they're also on the lighter side, presentation wise, and may come across as piercing/bright to some listeners. But all three deserve at least a passing look, and they'd all deliver excellent performance both for music and gaming (and you'd really be at a point where "upgrading" is into the territory of diminishing returns - don't let the modern adverts sell you on these being "entry level" cans - they're bona fide audiophile quality, they're just ten to twenty years old, and you can get another 1-10% more performance with some other offerings (in some cases at 10-100x the price)).
What's the difference between a sound card and a USB DAC? Would both be the same when it comes to gaming or would a sound card be preferred in this case?
 
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Feb 11, 2024 at 12:13 PM Post #40 of 44
In a similar boat, have a hefty GPU so an internal PCIe card is a no go. Would like something standalone in a combination DAC/AMP that has independent power but just drives data from the PC, possibly optical.
 
Feb 11, 2024 at 12:26 PM Post #41 of 44
What's the difference between a sound card and a USB DAC? Would both be the same when it comes to gaming or would a sound card be preferred in this case?
They're essentially the same but a sound card is just internal.

The main reason why you don't want a sound card is because the pc is a very noisy environment. Anything operating at high speeds will generate EMFs that increase in size with higher speeds. The compenents like cpu, ram, gpu, power supply, etc all generate their own noise and the mobo spreads it around everywhere cross contaminating everything.

For almost everything else, its negligible and doesn't affect anything but audio is highly affected by the noise contamination.
 
Feb 11, 2024 at 12:40 PM Post #42 of 44
Unpopular opinion but if you want to have all in one - DAC + headphones + convenience + phenomenal virtual surround for gaming and movies, you could get a Sony MDR-HW700DS. Sony stopped manufacturing it some years ago but you‘ll find used ones on eBay. Headphones can be used with USB cable even when batteries die or you can replace the battery with some basic soldering.
 
Feb 13, 2024 at 12:00 PM Post #43 of 44
Unpopular opinion but if you want to have all in one - DAC + headphones + convenience + phenomenal virtual surround for gaming and movies, you could get a Sony MDR-HW700DS. Sony stopped manufacturing it some years ago but you‘ll find used ones on eBay. Headphones can be used with USB cable even when batteries die or you can replace the battery with some basic soldering.
I'd worry about latency for gaming here. I say that while wearing the Sony WH-1000XM5 (which I love), and not having tried the older (RF?) model.
 

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