He he, another opportunity to recycle my latest rant.

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Directed at NO ONE IN PARTICULAR, just venting, please don't take personally. IMO, if you are looking for double-blind scientific validation from random samples of statistical significance to verify whether this or that component/upgrade/tweak is worth-while, and reject out of hand *every other form of information on the matter*-- you will be ENDLESSLY FRUSTRATED by the audio hobby. The "proof" you demand is not forthcoming. But good luck organizing these experiments to rigorously test the difference between the Headroom Home and the Maxed-Out Home, the Senn HD580 and the HD600, Zu Cable Senn cable and the Cardas cable and on and on and on... Hope you have lots of time and money and friends to get statistically relevant samples. It just doesn't work that way. The evidence you think you want just can't be attained, it just ain't practical. So what purpose does complaining about its absence serve?

IMO, for objectivists, you will find audio endlessly esoteric and anecdotal and I am mystified why such people would want to have anything to do with the hobby at all (and I'm also mystified by what people of that mindset see or hear in a thing as esoteric, intangible, subjective, right-brained and illogical as MUSIC for chrissakes, but that's a whole different argument); especially enough to get involved at the level you would want to argue endlessly about it all on this site (as seems to be happening a LOT lately); griping about matters that really just aren't controversial in the slightest to people already versed in the hobby and the realm of audio/sound reproduction. Oh yeah, *and who have actually TRIED some of these things for themselves*.

You can fool some of the people some of the time, but you can't fool all the people all the time. Yes, widespread subjective agreement about things like the improvements wrought by cable swaps is NOT "proof" in the existential sense, but surely it should be enough for almost anyone coming in to the hobby with a reasonable attitude to say, "what the heck, maybe I'll give it a shot myself"-- unless all they really want to do is ride around on a high horse and debate for debate's sake with people they pity as ignorant buffoons with more money than brains.

To counter every subjective review with the same old complaint, "well everything you wrote is invalid because you didn't do double-blind A/B testing at the MIT facilities supervised by a team of lab-coated PhD's and using a random sampling from the population of at least 30 people to achieve statistical significance, so NEENER NEENER"... Well, DUH, I mean, *of course* they didn't do that! It's not do-able. We're hobbyists here, not researchers with multi-million dollar budgets! Think about it-- how many components, headphones, amps, cables, sources, power conditioners, etc. etc. out there are there waiting to be tested? HUNDREDS OF THOUSANDS. And how many different configurations can you make with all of those components to form different systems? HUNDREDS OF MILLIONS!

So, what is the point of arguing with people's subjective opinions of their new piece of gear, unless it's just to be deliberately argumentative for the sake of stirring things up for the fun of pointing out the obvious? What purpose does it serve to attack subjective impressions of a single piece of gear, or even widely-held agreements about the efficacy of certain upgrades unless your goal is to be a troll or a grump?

Set up your own wing of MIT and do your own testing at your own expense, or just leave it alone. OR, you know, you might just do the OBVIOUS and somewhat easier and less expensive thing, and I don't know--- TRY IT YOURSELF!

Until these people who lampoon subjective impressions of gear step up and TRY IT THEMSELVES, IMO, they have no basis to lecture anyone on anything. I'm sorry, there is no scientific data for us to debate, only anecdotal evidence. These arguments always end up with the same back-and-forth accusations like "well, you're a mis-informed, audio-phool cash-wasting dunderhead subject to placebo", vs. "oh yeah, well you're a tin-eared know-nothing ignorant snob with one junior college-level-course-on-philosophy-under-his-belt-who-now-thinks-he-knows-everything but who's never actually tried anything for himself and has a low-end mass-market piece of crap system to boot, and wouldn't know good sound if it came up and bit him on the butt anyway."

The cold hard truth is, all you have to go on are the experts, people who have been out there and sampled all the different technologies at all the different price points, and critically listened to them in their own systems. All they can offer you is their expert *opinion* on what they make of any new piece of gear they put in their system. Is this metaphysically *infallible*? Can I guarantee that you will hear exactly what I hear and like exactly what I like? Absolutely NOT. I mean, *obviously*.

In the end, it all comes down to-- "OK, if you don't believe me, *maybe* you'll believe yourself". Come back AFTER you've tried it. Then you can rant all you like about what idiots we all are. But you know what, all your contrarian ranting will add up to is just one more minute piece of ANECDOTAL EVIDENCE, that you yourself would dismiss anyway if it was written by someone else and you came in and read it from the cold. All you are left with is your own SUBJECTIVE OPINION about why this piece of gear is better or worse or the same as that one. Another useless data point for you to dismiss. So there!

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'bye.

Wow Markl you really like your own posts don't you? Joke (no offence intended)

Everyone has their own theory and opinions. There is no right and wrong answer IMO. People can experiment and reach their own conclusions. Whether a high end source is worth it, then people have different budgets until it is not worth it. Some people will be happy with a source less than $1000 others might not be. It dependss a lot on financial ability at the time, circumstances, what the requirements are needed from the source whether SACD or whatever.

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He he, no, just this one in particular. I finally wrote down something I've had on my mind for a long time, something I really wanted to get off my chest.

I know people have been saying Head-Fi has been going down hill since the second day it opened, and I always argued against this "sky is falling" attitude, but lately, with the incredible growth of the site, I've noticed what at times can seem like an invasion of people who literally seem to hate the hobby, hate the kind of people involved in the hobby, and seem to only want to participate to the degree they can argue with, attack, and lampoon the people they find here. I just don't understand what they want here.

They seem to be seeking validation that their entry-level system is as good as audio gets, but that's not what they find here, so they defensively attack and ridicule all these dolts here with their expensive systems and silly after-market cables.

If you are happy with what you have, think the audio hobby is all just so much snake-oil and rubes at the mercy of placebo effect, of what interest is this site to you? You aren't shopping for new gear, after all, your system is "perfect" as is. You don't want to meet people in the hobby and talk to them either; after all, we're all just a bunch of pitiable morons here, right? So, why do they bother at all? I just don't get it...

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I don't get it either. There was a time I would have got involved in such debates but with the recent influx of "objectivists" I've realized that it's completely pointless and like you I wonder just why they are here in the first place.

Great post by the way.

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Great post markl! I agree 100%.

Yeah, Mark, you hit the nail on the head!

IMO, the most important thing is the music. Bad recordings/masterings are a drag, but should never be a deciding factor in buying music. If the material and performance are pleasing, then go for it. I enjoy this site for many reasons, but one thing I really appreciate is checking out the music forums here. Sometimes audiophiles get handcuffed by their own sonic expectations and maybe pass on great music, or worse collect music based on sonics alone. Here on Headfi the music discussions tend to be insightful and maybe one of the reasons is the relative democracy of the headphone listening experience. For relatively little money you can get a good playback system that works with everything from 192kb mp3s to Simon Yorke transcription turntables. So buy the hi end gear and enjoy it for whatever improvements you perceive, measurable or not, it doesn't matter as long as the music moves you.

markl: some people think they can buy gold for the price of tin , that's why a headfi meet is really eye opening. it is always you pay for what you get...
oh yea, this thread is pretty lame too...http://www4.head-fi.org/forums/showthread.php?t=101720

Nothing is more amusing than blubbering of an over-zealous "audiophile" (not directed at anybody in particular).

All of the technological advances in Audio were achieved by engineers and scientists -- not by misty eyed so called audiophiles. Today the audio industry is what it is thanks to those people who used science and worked hard to achieve what they have achieved thus far in AUdio technology.

Secondly, "this hobby" is no one's proprietary concept or social club so they could allow or disallow people to join -- as a matter of fact it is the same silly audiophiles with rocks on the top of their CD players that have given this hobby a bad name - Audiofools.

There are objective ‘audio enthusiasts’ who approaches this hobby by using facts and refuse to be silly consumers of snake oil vendors. That being said, these people are under no obligation to join the raving masses and be sheep to the audiophile flock.

Ultimately the technological advances in Audio industry will happen as in the past by using science and scientific expertise in many fields; not the hysterical fluff of audiophiles who like to read their own long blubbering on the internet while waiting for their cables to “burn-in”.

/btw, I'm an "Audio Enthusiast", if you call me an audiophile I'll step on your toe.

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Well, of course, who could dispute this? There's no argument here. The people that design and build audiophile gear are obviously knowledgeable and skillful enough to make them, where the average guy on the street is not. So what's your point?
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The hobby is what it is, not what you might want it to be. If it disgusts you, frustrates you, why bother? Quote:



I see you like painting with a broad brush, attacking a straw man, and choosing the most absurd example you can think of to tar anyone else with an interest in audio with the "audiofool" label. What you don't say, but imply is that to you, anyone with any expensive high-end gear of any kind is the intellectual/social equivalent of the guy with rocks on his CD player. Obviously, that betrays your personal bias, and frankly, ignorance.

Again, if you walk into a room, and find that everyone already in there is doing really weird stuff that drives you crazy, why stay?

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Well, again, duh! But you seem to assume that hi-end gear designs itself, springs fully-formed from the head of Zeus, God of Audiofools, without the intervention of knowledgeable, skilled, creative and innovative left-brained engineers. There are very smart, very educated, and skilled craftsmen that design and build this stuff, the fact they are able to ply their trade and succeed among the most finnicky consumers on the planet is testament to the fact that in general, they can represent the best and brightest in their field, not the nuttiest, flakiest twits with the least skills. Quote:



I certainly don't spend any time worrying about what people call me or what I think of myself as. "Audio enthusiast", "audiophile", it's all the exact same thing. An interest in the absolute best sound reproduction you can get your hands on. It's unfortunate that audio happens to follow the exact same natural principles of everything else in life-- in *general* (always exceptions *obviously*), the trend line clearly shows that "better" does in point of fact, cost *more*. It sucks, but it is reality here as in everywhere else in this life. It's funny how people who claim to be objectivists, cling desperately, as an act of pure *faith*, to the idea that their (typically) entry-level gear is the functional/performance/quality equivalent to everything else on the planet, no matter how expensive, well-built, or advanced technologically. And then flat out refuse to try anything else for fear it might upset their delicate world view...

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Why don't you let me enjoy my hobby the way I want to. Are you the spokeperson of audiophiles or just some guy with a "preaching problem"?

It is really annoying to tell people what to do...

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Hah ha! OH CRUEL IRONY!!!

All I'm saying is what has been on the minds of any number of people on the site who understand what the hobby is, appreciate the fact that 99.9% of it is subjective, and CAN LIVE WITH THAT FACT, and responding to the influx of people demanding scientific "proof" that doesn't exist for every single piece of "common knowledge" among the people who *know*. From this perspective, it's very easy to turn this appeal back around to those "objectivists" who want to argue endlessly about the "impossibility" of the common knowledge obtained through subjective, long-term experience. Maybe you haven't noticed this disturbing trend, but it's real, and it's disheartening.
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The people with the "preaching problem" are the objectivists who want to pooh-pooh every audiophile sacred cow for the jollies they seem to derrive from it. I'm just reacting to it all, letting off steam.

We are just like you-- we want to enjoy the hobby in peace without having to answer to every johnny-come-lately with a bee in his bonnet, riding in to town on his high-horse with his agenda to relieve the masses here of their blinding ignorance!

That's all...

To me this hobby is all about emotion. That's what the music is all about too, isn't it? You don't measure and analyze chord changes, timing of the musicians or scales they use in any scientific manner in order to find out what is the most emotionally engaging and/or fun music _to you_, do you? Why not? Because that would suck all the fun and emotion of the listening experience.

Same should apply to the equipment you use to enjoy your music, it's all subjective. No scientific measures are needed for one to find out what equipment sounds best to him. Only his ears (and eyes, nose & fingers) and his opinion.

Dr. Phil would say to a 'audiofool': "To be honest, I find your hobby ridiculous, but when it comes to you questioning your audio gear in the light of science you should really ask yourself if you whether want to be right or be happy. Forget all the measurements and other BS that doesn't really matter"

Wali,

I can't say I agree with the rancor of your posts, but I gotta hand it to you, this was funny: Quote:



...well it was!

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If I may, herein lies the problem. (Dare I say it, "your" problem.) The "hobby" is something that evolves. For better or for worse, hobbies and hobbyist communities tend to do that. I've participated in hobbies long enough to have accepted this, and I am sure you have too. Now comes the big step of recognizing that this hobby might change too, as the makeup of those who participate in it changes.

Personally, I think this hobby is maybe 50% subjective. Certainly not 99.9% or anything like that. Now maybe I'm in the minority.... but maybe I'm not, or maybe this site is getting flooded by tons of people who define the hobby differently. Certainly, for those who design audio equipment, the hobby tends to be rather objective. Do you consider them to be lesser hobbiests than you? Perhaps not, but that's the impression I get from the tone of your post... an impression that you feel threatened by others who might redefine (through sheer numbers) the hobby to be a lot less subjective and a lot more empirical than it was before.

I used to be like you, believing that it was all subjective until I realized that if we really believed that, then there'd be no purpose for this community. After all, it's all subjective, there's absolutely no way you and I can truly communicate our impressions of equipment, therefore we might as well throw in the towel. And yet, even the subjectivists talk about hearing veils lifted and layers peeled back due to a more expensive toslink cable interconnecting a pair of dejittering devices: they're trying to put down in writing (i.e. document) what they believe. Even the subjectivists are being objective merely by posting. Because of this, I have absolutely no problem with Joe buying $15,000 CD players with rocks on top to connect to a dejittering DAC, and I have equally little problem with Jane measuring the conductance of two cables and declaring them equal for all practical purposes. They BOTH represent the different spectrums of the hobby, and even help to define its extremes.

Those of us in the middle (call us Team Everything) just sit on the sidelines, enjoy the show, and try not to get hit in the crossfire.