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Questioning a claim seen in Tyll's Pono review
Dec 11, 2016 at 4:27 PM Thread Starter Post #1 of 11
DJ The Rocket

DJ The Rocket

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InTyll's Pono Player review, a good read in itself, he quotes an email reply he got from Pono Player designer Charlie Hansen:

"b) The human ear/brain is already known to be exquisitely sensitive to time smear. c) DBT and AB/X are really only sensitive to differences in frequency response"

Without getting into any debates on the merits of DBT/ABX or lack thereof (no one's opinion is likely to be changed here), can anybody shed some light on Hansen's claim? On the surface it seems to be self-contradictory. Is he saying DBT and ABX don't use the human brain? Your thoughts are appreciated, your knowledge moreso. Thanks

--Rocket
 
Dec 11, 2016 at 9:50 PM Post #2 of 11
dj the rocket said:
InTyll's Pono Player review, a good read in itself, he quotes an email reply he got from Pono Player designer Charlie Hansen:

"b) The human ear/brain is already known to be exquisitely sensitive to time smear. c) DBT and AB/X are really only sensitive to differences in frequency response"

Without getting into any debates on the merits of DBT/ABX or lack thereof (no one's opinion is likely to be changed here), can anybody shed some light on Hansen's claim? On the surface it seems to be self-contradictory. Is he saying DBT and ABX don't use the human brain? Your thoughts are appreciated, your knowledge moreso. Thanks

--Rocket
Click to expand...

 
 
Why would one waste any mental energy on a 2 year old review of a stillborn product?
 
Pono is deader than dead.
 
Dec 11, 2016 at 9:57 PM Post #3 of 11
dj the rocket said:
InTyll's Pono Player review, a good read in itself, he quotes an email reply he got from Pono Player designer Charlie Hansen:

"b) The human ear/brain is already known to be exquisitely sensitive to time smear. c) DBT and AB/X are really only sensitive to differences in frequency response"

Without getting into any debates on the merits of DBT/ABX or lack thereof (no one's opinion is likely to be changed here), can anybody shed some light on Hansen's claim? On the surface it seems to be self-contradictory. Is he saying DBT and ABX don't use the human brain? Your thoughts are appreciated, your knowledge moreso. Thanks

--Rocket
Click to expand...


what I read is that he makes a claim about sensitivity to time "smearing", and then goes to say that objective methods to test for it don't work.
which translates more or less into the famous song:
"I have an opinion, I have no fact
uhhh, opinion!"

 
Dec 11, 2016 at 9:59 PM Post #4 of 11
dj the rocket said:
InTyll's Pono Player review, a good read in itself, he quotes an email reply he got from Pono Player designer Charlie Hansen:

"b) The human ear/brain is already known to be exquisitely sensitive to time smear. c) DBT and AB/X are really only sensitive to differences in frequency response"

Without getting into any debates on the merits of DBT/ABX or lack thereof (no one's opinion is likely to be changed here), can anybody shed some light on Hansen's claim? On the surface it seems to be self-contradictory. Is he saying DBT and ABX don't use the human brain? Your thoughts are appreciated, your knowledge moreso. Thanks

--Rocket
Click to expand...

 
Also, there is this quote:
 
"Gentle digital filters with no pre-ringing."
 
This is half ******** and there is no free lunch.
 
If you use IIR filters, you can indeed get rid of pre-ringing, but you pay the price in terms of phase (no longer linear) and post-ringing gets a lot worse.  See diagram:
 

 
Dec 12, 2016 at 12:30 AM Post #5 of 11
Thanks watchnerd, castle, for your [on topic] input! I feel okay about dismissing that claim now. And castle, great, um, Avatar, haha. Aang > Korra < Sokka

watchnerd said:
Why would one waste any mental energy on a 2 year old review of a stillborn product?

Pono is deader than dead.
Click to expand...


As far as I can tell, you're the only one here talking about the Po(r)no. Your second post was useful though
 
Dec 12, 2016 at 12:33 AM Post #6 of 11
dj the rocket said:
Thanks watchnerd, castle, for your [on topic] input! I feel okay about dismissing that claim now. And castle, great, um, Avatar, haha. Aang > Korra < Sokka
As far as I can tell, you're the only one here talking about the Po(r)no. Your second post was useful though
Click to expand...

 
Yeah, but you bothered to read the review in the first place. :)
 
Dec 12, 2016 at 4:28 AM Post #7 of 11
dj the rocket said:
InTyll's Pono Player review, a good read in itself, he quotes an email reply he got from Pono Player designer Charlie Hansen:

"b) The human ear/brain is already known to be exquisitely sensitive to time smear. c) DBT and AB/X are really only sensitive to differences in frequency response"

Without getting into any debates on the merits of DBT/ABX or lack thereof (no one's opinion is likely to be changed here), can anybody shed some light on Hansen's claim? On the surface it seems to be self-contradictory. Is he saying DBT and ABX don't use the human brain? Your thoughts are appreciated, your knowledge moreso. Thanks

--Rocket
Click to expand...


The idea DBT and ABX are only sensitive to frequency differences is demonstrably false.  It is sensitive to enough time smear to hear.  It can be used for a large number of variables that aren't just frequency response.  Dream up a situation where time smear could be perceived and yet not perceived blind.  I don't understand how you can hear something you can't hear.
 
Dec 12, 2016 at 4:40 AM Post #8 of 11
First off, TH is trying to pass off as blind testing something which is nothing of the sort.
 
Next he passes off the idea he eventually learns to get it right 4 of 5 times.  Without more info that might be a significant amount or not, but it isn't blind anyway.
 
The Pono player uses a filter that rolls off treble at possibly audible levels and has aliasing at possibly audible levels.  The no feedback design interacts with the load to cause definitely audible changes in frequency response with comparison to other players. 
 
Dec 12, 2016 at 5:58 AM Post #9 of 11
my avatar doesn't have an arrow on the head ^_^, it's just a poorly drawn Saitama from "one punch man".
 
Dec 12, 2016 at 8:18 AM Post #10 of 11
Hansen is known to make outlandish claims laced with colorful language. He's one of those engineers that constantly have the need to reinvent the wheel to sell his goods. He's the force behind Ayre Acoustics.
 
Dec 12, 2016 at 10:57 AM Post #11 of 11
dj the rocket said:
InTyll's Pono Player review, a good read in itself, he quotes an email reply he got from Pono Player designer Charlie Hansen:

"b) The human ear/brain is already known to be exquisitely sensitive to time smear. c) DBT and AB/X are really only sensitive to differences in frequency response"

Without getting into any debates on the merits of DBT/ABX or lack thereof (no one's opinion is likely to be changed here), can anybody shed some light on Hansen's claim? On the surface it seems to be self-contradictory. Is he saying DBT and ABX don't use the human brain? Your thoughts are appreciated, your knowledge moreso. Thanks

--Rocket
Click to expand...

 
Just trust your own judgement's first thought ... you were hitting the nail on it's top right there.
Obviously a brain must be involved in DBT/ABX, otherwise it is called measurement.
rolleyes.gif

 
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