Hello folks,
This is my first post here!
I'm a hi-fi passionate from Italy... I don't really have a hi-fi system yet, but I'm planning on a headphone rig to start with. I'm used to my friend's hi-fi system, based on Manley amps and Wilson WATT/Puppy 8 speakers.
My friend recently received a pair of HiFiMan HE560 for reviewing and he invited me to test them with his Manley Neo-Classic 300B Preamp, to see if they could have been my cup of tea.
I think they are not: I find them "thin", very open sounding and I had to push insane volume levels to get something similarly "thick" as with the performance of his loudspeakers. Otherwise, I didn't find them much enjoyable.
I'm looking to buy an amp+headphones combo within a 3000 USD budget. I already have a Teac UD-501 DAC. I would like a timbrically neutral sound, not overly dark or bright (maybe darker is better than brighter anyway, for my tastes), which must be convincing and bodied at a reasonable volume.
Any suggestion, at this point, would be very appreciated. Oh, I almost forgot: the headphones must be circumaural, I don't want them to press on my ears, since I'll be wearing them for many hours.
 
Thank you so much.
Emiliano
 
P.S.: My friend is selling his Neo-Classic 300B Preamp and offered it to me, but I feel it's a bit too expensive for me as a "first amp"...

Very open sounding. Does that mean you want a closed headphone?

No, I didn't mean to refer to their topology. I was trying to describe the sound, "open" in a sense of air, space but also thin-bodied. It's not that I want a congested sound, but this was seemingly too thin for my tastes, instead I would enjoy some more presence, some more impact so to speak, some more thickness and juice in voices and cymbals, etc.
Talking about open or closed headphones, my environment is quiet and nobody would complain about me listening loud, so I don't need a closed model. I may be wrong, but I supposed that closed models brought some limitations due to their structure, and should only be chosen if noise insulation is needed. If I'm wrong with this assumption, I'm all ears!

Thank you,

Emiliano"

Check out HD650 and Focal Elear. What amplifier you should get depends on the headphone you choose.

I would also recommend trying to demo a Focal Elear if you found the HE560 to be "thin" sounding.  Should always try and demo gear before you buy, especially so with your budget.  Pick a headphone first, then find a great amp and dac that matches well with the headphone.

Bada PH12 hybrid amp - plenty of power and high resolution - I use with one Sylvania WGT Jan. 6SN7 (military WW II and later) tube and two Shugang Chinese 6SN7 tubes - from cattylink.com
 
Audeze LCD-3 planar headphone
 
need a good clean and high resolution source

emi88 said:

  Hello folks,
This is my first post here!
I'm a hi-fi passionate from Italy... I don't really have a hi-fi system yet, but I'm planning on a headphone rig to start with. I'm used to my friend's hi-fi system, based on Manley amps and Wilson WATT/Puppy 8 speakers.
My friend recently received a pair of HiFiMan HE560 for reviewing and he invited me to test them with his Manley Neo-Classic 300B Preamp, to see if they could have been my cup of tea.
I think they are not: I find them "thin", very open sounding and I had to push insane volume levels to get something similarly "thick" as with the performance of his loudspeakers. Otherwise, I didn't find them much enjoyable.
I'm looking to buy an amp+headphones combo within a 3000 USD budget. I already have a Teac UD-501 DAC...

Click to expand...

 
I, like you, have been into 2-channel hi-fi for many years, and am contemplating the move into a high quality headphone system.  I have a couple of observations:
 
1) Other seasoned Head-Fiers can describe this better, but I find it hard to compare, fairly, the bass and lower midrange of good headphones with that of a good 2-channel system (although the best headphones I've listened to so far are the Sennheiser HD800S headphones - I have not listened to the several options in the $2000 to $5000 range).  I believe part of the reason is because it is (understatement) more difficult for a headphone manufacturer to get adequate bass response out of a tiny headphone speaker than a speaker manufacturer to give us accurate bass response from an 10" or 12" woofer (not to mention, a well-integrated subwoofer).  I wonder if even $10,000 headphones could match the lower end of a pair of $3000 speakers (in a suitably matched system). 
 
1b) Perhaps a minor point, but with a superior 2-channel system, or a decent system with a subwoofer, you feel the bass also, even at medium volumes.  Of course one won't get that sensation with headphones.
 
2) With the headphones already at a disadvantage, you are also comparing a nice medium range pair of headphones to the sound from (with a $5000+ preamp and $28,000 speakers) what must be a $60K 2-channel system.  You might have to spend $20K on a headphone setup to halfway compare...  Additionally, I'd suggest your friend has more invested in cables and interconnects than the $3K you (and I) are looking to spend on our headphone setups!!
 
2b) The good news is that, unlike many, you have the knowledge and memory of what really well-reproduced music actually sounds like.
 
3) So, my conclusion is, wait for it: You aren't looking at expensive enough headphones!  I'm not really trying to be funny -
first: headphones that won't compare to your friend's state-of-the-art system, but are superior in their class, seem to cost in the $2000 to $5000 range (and of course, you can spend silly(er) amounts on headphones just as you can spend silly amounts on loudspeakers).
secondly: Your budget will actually support headphones that are a lot better than the HE-560 headphones you already listened to.
 
To me, your goal will be to find what is good enough for you.  For now, what really nice headphones are satisfying?  More good news:
one: you seem to have a really acceptable DAC already, to fit with a $3K ish headphone and amp purchase.
two: There are several really great headphone choices in your price range which should be a significant step up, compared to the $900 headphones you already listened to. Examples are:
Senn HD800S     ($1600)
Audez'e LCD-X     ($2000)
HiFiMan Edition X  ($1800)  (I don't see many people with these)
Mr. Speaker Ether Flow ($1850)
And there are others; but, since I'm looking to spend $3500 which also has to include a DAC (and cables and power conditioner), I am focusing on the $1000 to $1500 headphones and don't recall the nicer and more expensive ones.
 
 Of course, at the next price point (and isn't there always one of those) Audez'e offers the LCD-3 and LCD-4; HiFiMan the HE1000 - to name just a couple. I'd say most of the experts here would suggest there are some terrific choices in the $2200 to $2900 range.
 
My conclusion: Listen to some $1600 to $2000 (or more   ) headphones and find the ones you like, then try to match a good $1000 to $1200 amp to them and you should be well on your way to headphone nirvana.

The headphone is most important. You can save on the amp if you get the Bada PH12 (about $600 from cattylink.com shipped worldwide) which competes with any amp under $2000.
 
I would take the Bada PH12 over any all-tube amp at any cost. A hybrid is the way to go in amps, as shown in the recent top amps from Audeze (called the King for its designer named King) and HiFiMan.
 
 
An hybrid combines the best of tubes and SS sound.

Hello Headfiers,
 
I'm Emiliano's friend, I was following the discussion and I thought I could subscribe and say Hello.
DelsFan makes some interesting points in his thorough and well presented considerations.
As Emiliano briefly mentioned, I'm a reviewer for one of our national hi-fi mags, so I get the opportunity to test things which don't necessarily fit in my listening habits: one of these is headphones, which I only (albeit often) use when a circumstance calls for them. PC, traveling...
Therefore, I redirected him and his search towards Head-Fi.org, possibly the first and best regarded place for the job, and I see the discussion nicely shaping into meaningful philosophy.
I'll point out that headphones, apart from some size-related disadvantages in transmitting "physical" sensations, such as impact and slam, have some good tricks in their sleeves such as the shortest path from speaker to ear. This brings immensely greater efficiency and a lot less complications with environmental interactions. Details in spades, easily better uniformity across the spectrum, in simple words a lot of... Fidelity, at least in the basics.
I was fooled by my assumption that Emiliano, having little audio-mileage except for comin' over at my place sometimes, would have been impressed by the detail and wide band of the He560, and simply take it as an awesome starting point, but neither happened.
Instead, he went a lot further comparing the two systems' presentations (Manley Neo-Classic 300B with HifiMan He560, versus Manley 300B plus Manley Reference 240/100, and Wilson WATT/Puppy 8 speakers) in terms of presence, "weight" and dyanmics. Kinda caught the cat by the tail.
At this point, I guess the best suggestion would be to build a damn traditional hi-fi system, but he won't listen to me (just jokin'). Otherwise, trying out some even better headphones seems the only reasonable thing to do. We exchanged a few words yesterday and he seems curious to try the Audeze LCD X/ LCD 3. I'll see if I can help him getting his hands on a pair.

I will spend just a few words about the Bada amp being insistently recommended by drarthurwells. I have no reason to discuss his sincere enthusiasm for the brand, but putting it ahead of "any other tube amp" would look better on a brochure flier than a discussion board. At least for the reason that not all tube amps sound like tube amps, and same goes for SS amps in my humble experience. Or do you think that the Manley Neo-Classic 300B, as a line preamp, will sound more "tubey" than - say - a Pass Aleph P?
I reviewed a Bada CD-Player in the past, the HD-19 if my memory serves me well. It was a decent machine, even competitive at its price range. Even though it was okay, it tasted and looked chinese like any other - even costly - chinese product I tested. If my friend is willing to put together a few thousand dollars worth of equipment, I have the suspicion that a Bada amp will last no more than one week in there. From a philosophical, aesthetic and tactile viewpoint, at the very least.

Wish you all a nice day,

Giacomo

emi88 said:

  Hello folks,
This is my first post here!
I'm a hi-fi passionate from Italy...

Click to expand...

 
Seeing as you live in Italy even, I'd say you should take a long hard look at the Pathos Aurium hybrid. It's an excellent amp and looks beautiful - think it's still on Innerfidelity's wall of fame. It's amazing, works well with pretty much every headphone and should fall reasonably within your 3k budget.

giacomo pagani said:

  I will spend just a few words about the Bada amp being insistently recommended by drarthurwells. I have no reason to discuss his sincere enthusiasm for the brand, but putting it ahead of "any other tube amp" would look better on a brochure flier than a discussion board. At least for the reason that not all tube amps sound like tube amps, and same goes for SS amps in my humble experience. Or do you think that the Manley Neo-Classic 300B, as a line preamp, will sound more "tubey" than - say - a Pass Aleph P?
I reviewed a Bada CD-Player in the past, the HD-19 if my memory serves me well. It was a decent machine, even competitive at its price range. Even though it was okay, it tasted and looked chinese like any other - even costly - chinese product I tested. If my friend is willing to put together a few thousand dollars worth of equipment, I have the suspicion that a Bada amp will last no more than one week in there. From a philosophical, aesthetic and tactile viewpoint, at the very least.

Wish you all a nice day,

Giacomo

Click to expand...

 
 
I have never owned or heard any Bada CD player and can't understand your reference to it here. What relevance does that have to the Bada PH12 headphone amp?
 
I have owned over a dozen headphone amps over the years. I had a Ray Samuels Raptor that was tube amp that sounded like a solid state amp, and it was too lean and harsh no matter which tubes I tried in it - the less expensive Bada PH12 was so much better. I owned several different Woo tube amps which were all of low resolution with poor tone imaging (and muddled congestion with complex orchestral passages) compared to the Bada PH12.
 
As far as line preamps, they sound too clinical and lack dynamic impact.
 
For more comments on the Bada PH12 see the recent post of mine on this thread:
 
http://www.head-fi.org/t/813989/audeze-lcd-3
 
As far as Chinese quality, they make many cheap low fi products that are good for their low price but otherwise not noteworthy, but their high end equipment offers superb quality for less cost than products from other countries. I have used Eastsound CD players and Bada PH12 headphone amps for about 10 years now without any failure. I would take my $4,500 Eastsound E5 Platinum Reference Edition CD player over any other CD player made.

emi88 said:

No, I didn't mean to refer to their topology. I was trying to describe the sound, "open" in a sense of air, space but also thin-bodied. It's not that I want a congested sound, but this was seemingly too thin for my tastes, instead I would enjoy some more presence, some more impact so to speak, some more thickness and juice in voices and cymbals, etc.
Talking about open or closed headphones, my environment is quiet and nobody would complain about me listening loud, so I don't need a closed model. I may be wrong, but I supposed that closed models brought some limitations due to their structure, and should only be chosen if noise insulation is needed. If I'm wrong with this assumption, I'm all ears!

Thank you,

Emiliano"

Click to expand...

Someone is selling a $2,500 tube amp for $1,500 in the classifieds here!
The Trafomatic Head 2 is a killer amp. I recommend it with a Sennheiser HD800.

Normally the Sennheiser HD800 has a weak & thin signature, just like the HE560, but with the Head 2, it goes from thin to very thick. Almost as thick sounding as a Audeze LCD-2 & without any of the flaws (small soundstage, lower resolution).
I had close to 10 amps of various costs, not one of them was able to give the HD800 a meaty thick sound to the music or force the HD800 to produce any thumping bass until I go the the Trafomatic Head 2.

drarthurwells said:

   
 
I have never owned or heard any Bada CD player and can't understand your reference to it here. What relevance does that have to the Bada PH12 headphone amp?
 
I have owned over a dozen headphone amps over the years. I had a Ray Samuels Raptor that was tube amp that sounded like a solid state amp, and it was too lean and harsh no matter which tubes I tried in it - the less expensive Bada PH12 was so much better. I owned several different Woo tube amps which were all of low resolution with poor tone imaging (and muddled congestion with complex orchestral passages) compared to the Bada PH12.
 
As far as line preamps, they sound too clinical and lack dynamic impact.
 
For more comments on the Bada PH12 see the recent post of mine on this thread:
 
http://www.head-fi.org/t/813989/audeze-lcd-3
 
As far as Chinese quality, they make many cheap low fi products that are good for their low price but otherwise not noteworthy, but their high end equipment offers superb quality for less cost than products from other countries. I have used Eastsound CD players and Bada PH12 headphone amps for about 10 years now without any failure. I would take my $4,500 Eastsound E5 Platinum Reference Edition CD player over any other CD player made.

Click to expand...

 
I see your enthusiasm and I don't have any reason to spoil the Bada of its own rights to be a perfectly good amplifier. I see you enjoyed it more than more expensive products, and this thing happens all the time in our world(s). I won't be the guy who tells you that more expensive is necessarily better.
With Chinese stuff, I just know my friend good enough to say he'll throw the thing out of the window in a little time. Why? Not because it has to sound bad, in fact I'll state once more that I tested also expensive chinese amps drawing very positive sonic conclusions. But each one of those lacked the design expertise of other makers. The "less cost" for sonic performance, if any, was always at the expense of ergonomics and/or fit and finish. I think high fidelity isn't a toolkit. You have to enjoy it. Sure people have different approaches to "beautiful things": someone will enjoy a piece of plastic if it sounds superb because "that's what is all about", someone else can't accept to relax in front of his hobby if a knob isn't smooth to turn, and if his "toys" aren't nice to deal with.
Chinese stuff, in my experience, even chinese stuff worth thousands of dollars, shows their lack in expertise in building luxury items. Circuits are circuits and the things will sound good, because they have tons of good engineers. Technically speaking, they'll be astonishingly well made sometimes. But when it comes to ergonomics, finish, appearance, "feeling", they almost never stand out. Aluminium is aluminium but the corners can be rounded or not. A knob is a knob but it can be centered good or bad, and the pot behind can be smooth and solid, or grainy and finicky. I saw many pictures of the Bada HD12, and I don't need to touch it to spot the same story repeating itself. No offense, it's just me and my design critics, my taste.
I'm sure though, no matter how good it will sound, that item would hardly be seen in my rack next to expensive and well made gear, such as a pair of higher end Audeze headphones.

Emiliano will eventually pop up with his own take on this subject, which, by the way, I wouldn't want to drag the whole discussion off-topic.
I still think, though, that many good amps are out there, tubey or not, and you don't always have to sacrifice good design and ergonomics to buy a good sound within you budget.

Giacomo

There is no a priori way to predict sonic outcome from design.
 
A amp designing engineer has no way of knowing if his original design will work as well as hoped - some do and are used and other designs don't work and are abandoned.
 
As far as your emphasis on form instead of function (style instead of substance), I could care less how a stereo product looks - I want natural and realistic audio performance and not bells and whistles.
 
 
I suggest you focus on sonic results and not design and looks, if your goal is to find the best sound.

drarthurwells said:

  There is no a priori way to predict sonic outcome from design.
 
A amp designing engineer has no way of knowing if his original design will work as well as hoped - some do and are used and other designs don't work and are abandoned.
 
As far as your emphasis on form instead of function (style instead of substance), I could care less how a stereo product looks - I want natural and realistic audio performance and not bells and whistles.
 
 
I suggest you focus on sonic results and not design and looks, if your goal is to find the best sound.

Click to expand...

I ain't looking for form "over" function, or style "without" substance. I want to pay hard-earned money for items that will couple a bunch of electronic devices with a decent chassis and ergonomics that I can happily put in my living room, look at, and use to my all-round satisfaction.
I sure know opinions will differ at this point: world is nicely filled with different people, and I surely won't judge you. By the way, my own "good" sound is there in my living room.

Giacomo