prot
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Life after Yggdrasil?
- Thread starter Torq
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I finally got around to posting the proper write-up for the Chord DAVE ... now it has appropriate details and impressions and not just two sentences saying it was good!
I don't doubt that TotalDAC is paying less than retail. How much less, unless it is the "really really" special arrangement that I commented on, is up for debate. When I bulk-purchase components from distributors the price breaks can get very good indeed. The avenues I explored in trying to find good pricing on the resistors TotalDAC is using I still couldn't get down to a price that would let the guts of just the resistor ladders be under about $3K. Then you've got all the other stuff to account for as well.
Obviously only Vincent and his supplier know for sure, but I've built enough products over the years, in one form or another, that my general experiences put me in a place where I believe the parts BoM for TotalDAC is much higher than for most products.
Ultimately it's a "Feel Good" thing ... it doesn't, ultimately, change the performance of the product. Whether he's paying 10% or 80% of retail, it still sounds the same.
Cheers
Just trying to keep the thread alive while lucky Torq goes diving (IIUC)
Travelling, exploring, working a bit and, yes, as much diving as possible in the non-working parts of the trip.
Haven't left yet ... and things are going a bit more smoothly than I thought they might ahead of that, so maybe I'll get more thoughts posted before I do depart (I had figured on being gone already).
Chord
This is the updated, complete, write-up for DAVE. I've added it to the original "Chord" post as well, but figure that update is more likely to get missed than just posting the my thoughts, in isolation, inline with the rest of the thread:DAVE (+)
Without wanting to beat about the bush, DAVE is the best reproduction of digital music that I have ever heard. In other words, it’s the best sounding DAC I’ve experienced to date.
On every individual measure it pulls ahead of Yggdrasil. In some areas more than others, but I didn’t find any point of my evaluation where the check-mark went in the Schiit DAC’s column. To be sure, some of the differences were about my own subjective preferences and others might prefer Yggdrasil’s performance in that area. And certainly some of the differences were, even then, very small. But they were something I found consistent.
DAVE plays beautiful, detailed, nuanced, textured, flowing, sonorous, engaging, emotive music.
I did not want to stop listening, and wound up listening to quite a bit more than my normal audition play list (I really need to get that posted). Exploring everything from acapella vocals, and being enchanted not just by the tone but the incredible sense of air and space in the presentation, to complex, layered, orchestral work and being able to pick seemingly any individual instrument (not just section, or row) and follow it. Yggdrasil actually gets pretty close on this last point as well, so do the Linn units oddly enough, but it’s a little harder to focus on the individual.
Timbre was, as far as I can tell, as close to perfect as I could ever evaluate. This is the only DAC I’ve heard that renders piano (a focus for me) as well as Yggdrasil. I wouldn’t say it does the tone better, but it isn’t giving anything up there either.
Sound-stage/imaging was out of this world, both with headphones and, especially, with speakers.
With Yggdrasil, and the right recording, I’ve gotten quite accustomed to being able to hear the change in location of a note played on the piano based on where it emanates from in the soundstage. In other words, you can very easily perceive the left-to-right transition as an ascending passage is played across the keyboard.
DAVE actually managed this even more vividly, which surprised me. This certainly wasn’t as apparent with any of the other Chord units, and it was something I didn’t really get from any other DAC.
Transparency and detail are extremely impressive, without seeming bright at all. There was no sense of exaggeration or artificiality to the detail, just oodles of information presented in a natural and un-emphasized fashion. I had the sense that more detail was being rendered than with Yggdrasil. Not much more. And not in everything. But, for example, the bounce and taughtness of a drum-skin, and the decaying oscillation of a Timpani, were more subtle and nuanced than anything else I’ve heard – and it was possible to easily detect the sticks hitting different areas of that skin.
This is particularly evident when listening directly through the headphone output. It sounds fantastic. This would be my preferred way to listen to DAVE with most headphones. I’d make exceptions for the LCD-4 and the Abyss … I preferred those via an external amplifier – even though that path results in a minor, but noticeable, loss in transparency.
Transients, attack, decay … are all magnificent. Yggdrasil does those things incredibly well and this is one area in which DAVE is really only just creeping ahead. And that might be a different thing I’m hearing, perhaps the transparency is affecting my perception, but either way it’s exceptional.
I could go on, item, by item, drawing comparisons, but I don’t feel the need to. DAVE was ahead, by more, or less, in every area and, most importantly, it grabbed me, engaged me and involved me, in the music in a way that I found addictive, emotive, and nourishing. And that’s about as much as I can ask of any component.
Yggdrasil does this too … to be sure, and better than almost everything else … and it’s less that DAVE plays music, as such, meaningfully better than it just exhibits slight improvements on a technical/evaluative level while STILL having that musical and emotive capacity. So, really, the best of both worlds …
It’s an amazing piece.
Rob is, I hope, as justifiably proud of his accomplishments here as, I would also hope, Mike is of his. In fact I think Mike should be prouder … as his creation is much cheaper and only just slightly behind, overall, what I find with DAVE!
So … on sound/music reproduction … for me … this is the high-point so far.
But … as I mentioned, there are things about this DAC that rub me entirely the wrong way. Actually, truth be told, they’re applicable pretty much across the Chord line, and particularly, something I ran into with the Hugo TT …
I consider the appearance, or aesthetics, of DAVE to be something of a “Marmite” thing. And, in my case, I don’t care for the look of the unit at all. It seems to aim for “futuristic” but, for me, winds up falling somewhere between fussy and really rather ugly.
DAVE doesn’t sit well in the rack, either. If it’s not the top-most unit then the controls and display are not exactly easy to get at/read. I could space the shelves further apart, but that causes me other issues. And you could buy the stand, which tilts things forward some and makes it easier to interact with, but that’s almost as expensive as the DAC I’m comparing this too and is very off-putting on that basis.
It’s almost as if the thing was designed this way to promote sales of that stand. That’s how it feels to me, at least. And I don’t like that. I’d be less irritated by if the stand wasn’t so expensive (and I’m not buying that it makes any sonic difference … I’ve yet to hear, a benefit to such things with purely solid-state gear).
The remote would, ideally, fix these issues … and display-aside it largely does. But it’s a very cheap feeling affair compared to the solidity and quality of the rest of the build. This doesn’t help my aesthetic perceptions of the unit at all.
Getting support on a DSD-dropout issue proved to be fruitless. This wasn’t specifically with DAVE, though it seems to affect that unit too. But it left a very poor impression of Chord’s support (directly, or via their dealers), the issue was never resolved – and for the most part even once I was connected with someone, they just never responded to the results of the questions they asked or the information I provided.
As it happens, I’ve since decided not to bother with DSD this isn’t a technical issue and doesn’t affect my evaluation of DAVE. However, I do consider such poor support to be an issue with a purchase at this level and it taints my view of the company and its commitment to its customers.
--
So sonically, this easily hits the mark. I find it better, pretty much across the board, than Yggdrasil and, for that matter, every other DAC I’ve heard to this point. How it fares against the DACs I still have to audition is impossible to predict, but given how hard it has been just to meet, let alone beat, Yggdrasil so far – it seems like a tall order to elevate things even further.
On that, only time, and listening, will tell.
Acknowledging that this is the best DAC I’ve heard is easy. Convincing myself to actually buy one is going to be a lot harder. This thing is nearly six times the price of Yggdrasil, and between two and four times the price of the other units currently on my shortlist. That’s a big jump and the law of diminishing returns is in very full force here … the gains might be across the board but individually they’re mostly relatively small. Apparent, but small.
I also have to get past the aesthetics which are very polarizing for me. This would be in my main listening room, which is a very visually coherent space … and DAVE is distinctive enough that it’s going to stick out like a sore thumb (or wind up being less than ideal to actually use).
But, so far, this is the front-runner … and convincingly so.
murphythecat
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im curious, what is the speaker you use?
acguitar84
100+ Head-Fier
Dave is way out of my price range, but if it wasn't...hmmm...I'd have to ask myself, since it costs 6 times as much as Yggy, is it 6 times better?
No, it's not 6 times "better". But then pretty much nothing in audio works out that way. The law of diminishing returns kicks in very quickly. The difference between, say, a $1,000 headphone system and a $10,000 one might not even be "twice" as good, though you'd expect it to be clearly and obviously better across the board.
I wouldn't say DAVE was 6x better than Mojo either ... and that's a 22x multiplier.
But then it's very hard to try and reduce such things to a simple number and price is rarely a reflection of anything useful (other than what it'll cost)!
You're talking low-single-digit percentage point improvements by the time you get up to this level and, in many cases, it's not about performance but more about signature.
I've used various speakers in my evaluations.
My personal sets are Linn Majik Isobarik's in Aktiv mode (external amps and crossovers). And more recently, Linn Akudoriks. But at various points other speakers/systems were employed, including B&W 802 D2, a couple of Wilson models and others here and there. In general, specific comparisons between specific DACs were carried out in the same system, but not always my system.
For example, the TotalDAC vs. Yggdrasil listening was done in a friend's system in the UK while I was travelling - which is not identical to mine (different speakers and power-amp, same headphone-amp/headphones).
It's not perfect, by any means, but then my goal was never to be 100% objective or scientific ...
acguitar84
100+ Head-Fier
@ Torq,
Gosh, I hear you about the "law of diminishing returns!" I understand it won't be 6 times better of course, but gosh, I have to admit I wish I could hear one (Chord Dave). I'm a relative "newbie" to all of this high end audio, so I'm learning as I go here.
I just got my first outboard DAC late last fall (Concero HD). I really like it, but I know better sound is out there. For instance the Schiit gumby and the yggy would easily beat it according to numerous posts I've read, and I've read everything I have been able to find about both of them.
Makes me wish I could hear all three of them (Dave, Yggy and Gumby) and compare them to the Concero HD to see how much better the sound would be. Right now, I'm currently saving for at least two more DAC's for my desktop computers, with an eye towards putting the Concero HD back in my headphone rig.
This is a great thread and it's been very informative. There are so many different alternatives out there, threads like yours really help! Good luck in your search!
Gosh, I hear you about the "law of diminishing returns!" I understand it won't be 6 times better of course, but gosh, I have to admit I wish I could hear one (Chord Dave). I'm a relative "newbie" to all of this high end audio, so I'm learning as I go here.
I just got my first outboard DAC late last fall (Concero HD). I really like it, but I know better sound is out there. For instance the Schiit gumby and the yggy would easily beat it according to numerous posts I've read, and I've read everything I have been able to find about both of them.
Makes me wish I could hear all three of them (Dave, Yggy and Gumby) and compare them to the Concero HD to see how much better the sound would be. Right now, I'm currently saving for at least two more DAC's for my desktop computers, with an eye towards putting the Concero HD back in my headphone rig.
This is a great thread and it's been very informative. There are so many different alternatives out there, threads like yours really help! Good luck in your search!
I realise a lot of development went into to the DAVE, and there is a strong consensus that the sound is excellent......but, even if I could afford one, I'd still have trouble reconciling the price based on a peak under the hood.
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I realise a lot of development went into to the DAVE, and there is a strong consensus that the sound is excellent......but, even if I could afford one, I'd still have trouble reconciling the price based on a peak under the hood.
To really get the true value of the Chord Dave is to use it like a sound engineer would, changing the sampling settings to best settings for the albums or songs on the playlist. Oh, and getting used to the "looking-glass" display face when navigating the DAC.
Nagra
HD DAC (-)The Nagra HD DAC turned out to be a bit of an enigma. It's been a struggle to compose something that coherently captures my thoughts and feelings on this one. I may come back to this if I come up with a better way to convey them, but for now this is where things sit.
Transients seemed a bit softer than I’m used to hearing. Not problematically so, I wouldn’t describe the overall sound as “soft”, but still it seemed to have somewhat less impact in that regard than most of the other DACs I’ve listened to so far.
Presentation had a sense of extreme cleanliness about it, almost bordering on analytical, but then there would be instruments or voices that were presented with wonderful lushness. In this context I mean analytical more in the sense that I was not experiencing what I would consider to be a fully emotive musical experience … it was more just that I was listening to a highly technically competent performance.
This is something I came across with other DACs when I was experimenting with DSD, and was converting PCM sources to DSD to see A) if there was a benefit to doing so and B) how the DSD performance was. And in more than one case things just seemed to get a bit softer or lose focus. This may be an artifact of that type of conversion, but it’s not a completely consistent effect, so I’m not sure. If it is, it makes sense, since that’s what this DAC does internally.
That’s just speculation, however; it doesn’t change what I was hearing/experiencing.
Generally, the rendering was smooth across the board, perhaps a little too smooth at times, though it was distinctly non “Hi FI” sounding (that part is good). I’d go as far as to describe as it being mostly rather organic, but without ever really feeling like it was analog in nature.
Tone and timbre were generally quite rich, which sort of goes against the analytical note I mentioned, but at the same time it wasn’t persuasive. That richness didn’t feel like it was coming from the recording (perhaps because it wasn’t evident elsewhere).
In the end I decided to just try and sit and listen and get lost in the music. Usually when a component has the capacity to make music on that level I don’t have to try … and with the best setups I cannot even resist it … and here, well, it just didn’t happen.
Rather than keep stumbling trying to express the contrarian, simultaneous, impressions listening to this DAC left me with, I’ll short cut things a bit … which is really what happened with my auditioning anyway …
This is a $28,000 DAC* … and there is nothing I found about it, beyond the nature of the lushness it sometimes exhibited, that I would take over very much cheaper DACs. I’ll go further than that and say I don’t think I’d buy it at all … even at a fraction of that price.
Let’s put this in perspective …
For that price, I could buy the DAVE, Pavane, DirectStream AND another Yggdrasil, and still get change out of the price of the Nagra unit.
And to focus that a bit further …
From a musical perspective … I’d rather listen to any one of those than the HD DAC.
Sometimes a stratospheric price tag means nothing more than the thing is more expensive.
So it’s less that Yggdrasil beats this thing technically, though in my opinion it does, and more that I’d just rather listen to the music that flows forth from Yggdrasil’s than try to find it in this particular DAC.
(*Some potential confusion on price, due it not being entirely clear what PSU option was being discussed.)
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