Life after Yggdrasil?

Honestly of all the dacs besides mine I am most interested in the convert 2. Thats real studio gear. Not this extremely overpriced bullcrap.

grizzlybeast said:

Honestly of all the dacs besides mine I am most interested in the convert 2. Thats real studio gear. Not this extremely overpriced bullcrap.

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The Convert is said to sound amazing, there is one friend of mine who heard it and said it was better than Weiss DAC1 MK3...I didn't heard both but knowing Dangerous Music I'm sure it will live up to the hype.

I believe the hype actually

torofiestasol said:

  This is a very nice thread, congratulations, is refreshing to read honest opinions.
Just have a couple of suggestions for your list.
 
You can add the Dangerous Music Convert-2 (some people says it is slighty better than Yggdrasil and costs the same)
Also, the soon to be released Ayre QX-5 Twenty looks very promising, specially if paired with a NAS with dedicated ethernet connection (Ayre said ethernet was the best sounding option in the TheAudioBeat report) like the Fidata HFAS1-S10U (it will be released soon to Europe and USA, right now is only available in japan and costs 370k yen, which is like 3.5k usd)

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grizzlybeast said:

Honestly of all the dacs besides mine I am most interested in the convert 2. Thats real studio gear. Not this extremely overpriced bullcrap.

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Appreciate the suggestions, but not going to run with them ...
 
The Dangerous Music Convert-2 came up already in the thread.  It's not something I want to audition.  It won't fit in the rack, and even if it did it's not something I want sitting in my listening room from an aesthetic perspective (I'd have to cover the front panel, even if the "rack mount" look was something I cared for).  It's the kind of thing that might sit in my studio, but I'm not shopping for converters for that right now.
 
Remember, it's not just sound-quality that I care about here (if it was, I'd be approaching this differently).
 
In regards to the Ayre QX-5 Twenty ...
 
I already have a similar unit ... have for years, though I just upgraded it.  That's the Linn Akurate DSM/1 ... which has the not small advantage of being able to run their Exakt system ... which is what I'm in the process of moving my speaker system too.
 
Beyond becoming a bit burned out with all this auditioning, I'm not keen to add more units to the list.  That goes doubly so for anything ESS 9XXX series based as, while those units can and do sound excellent, I've found they pretty much have topped out in performance and enjoyability by about the $3,500 mark.  I'm highly disinclined to spend more than that on an ESS based design at this time and, so far, the units on my shortlist all do a better job and are more attractive for other reasons.
 
The "Fidata HFAS1-S10U" is of no interest at all.  I have several network streaming options already (Aries, Sonicorbiter, Linn Akurate DSM/1, RedNet 3) and one thing I am NOT going to do is deliberately use a USB interface anywhere in my music system.  That completely rules out the Fidata before we have to worry about anything else it might or might not do.
 
From a realistic perspective, any streaming solution I buy going forward needs to suppport Roon natively.  DLNA/UPnP/OpenHome is fine, and setting that up for a serious listening session, where I know what I want to listen to going in, is okay.  But Roon is a much better experience when I'm in an exploratory mood, which is often, that any streamer that doesn't support that going forward is not of interest.

grizzlybeast said:

I believe the hype actually

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The're killing it on the pro audio side.
Of their DACs I really like the DAC-ST and is a world beater, but what I really liked about them is the BAX-EQ, that EQ is the best thing since slice bread...

Torq I knew you weren't interested.

Maybe one day I will get my hands on one.

While I'm thinking about/talking about "streamers" and "ethernet interfaces", a quite precis of what I'm planning there (yes, I should be writing up more DAC notes ... but I'll get back to that in a bit) ...
 
Once I am caught up on my write-ups, and have my RedNet system up and running, I'll be comparing, at a minimum (since I already own these), the following streaming interfaces.  All use ethernet and/or WiFi and none rely on USB (since I don't use it for audio unless there's no other choice).
 

1. Linn Akurate DSM/1 (my notes from the DAC auditions will cover its sound as a streamer/DAC/pre-amp/source).
2. Auralic Aries (the higher-end version)
3. RedNet 3
4. SonicOrbiterSE

 
And then anything else that takes my fancy.
 
I've stated that any future streamer will need to support Roon to be of interest.  That's true.  In the case of what I have on hand, that's supported natively by both the Aries and the SonicOrbiterSE.  It isn't supported at all by the Linn, though there's on-again-off-again rumors that it will happen.  With the RedNet 3 it's easy to give it Roon support ... you simply set things up so the computer upon which you install the virtual sound card software that feeds it is also running either the full Roon application (Core or Client, in my case it'd be Core) or their bridge application ... and low-and-behold you have a very serious ethernet interface that handles Roon seamlessly.
 
So far, I've found that the ethernet based interfaces all easily surpass direct computer connections (even when that connection is via a TOSLINK cable).  And also are much simpler, more elegant, than any of the myriad USB re-clocker/cleaner/isolator devices (individually or in concert with each other).
 
As a result, the criteria for inclusion there will be, going forward:
 

1. Ethernet and/or WiFi input.
2. Native Roon support (or an easy way to integrate it with Roon, as with the RedNet).
3. Preferred AES/EBU XLR output, TOSLINK and COAX acceptable, won't use the USB interface.

 
Just something to think about ...

Merging

[size=17.03px]NADAC [/size][size=17.03px](-)[/size][size=17.03px](!)[/size]

I found this unit to sound clean, dynamic, resolving, balanced and neutral.
 
It was also utterly boring.
 
At least via it’s conventional inputs.
 
Which, by the way, in the case of the TOSLINK and COAX S/PDIF inputs are limited to 24/96 signals.  Oddly low limits for such a “high-end” device.  But then you don’t buy this unit if you’re going to use those inputs (unless you’re a complete Muppet, I guess); in fact I’m not even sure why they bothered to include them, as this thing only makes sense when driven by its AES67 (“Ravenna”) interface.
 
Using that interface transforms the performance of the product, quite readily elevating it to the levels of the best ESS-based units I’ve heard.  It might even be the best – on a technical level.  But then it would have to be, because it’s $8,900!
 
The music, and involvement, steps up significantly once being driven via Ethernet.  Yes, you need drivers to make that work, but once installed you can feed it easily with your player of choice (including my preference, Roon).
 
Detail/resolution steps up a couple of notches, and just manages to surpass the more common run of ESS-based units I’ve listened to during this process – and that’s achieved without the exaggeration or brightness that accompanied most of them.  Timbre still isn’t where the less conventional competition is at this price level, and is still bested, quite handily in my opinion, by Yggdrasil.  Sound-stage, also, isn’t on the level of the Yggdrasil or Chord products.
 
If I had to characterize it in short form, I’d draw a contrast with the exaSound e22 Mk2.  This is a bit smoother than the exaSound, and very slightly more involving with some tracks, but that just makes me wonder how the e22 would perform given the same Ethernet interface.  And, at the end of the day, putting the e22 on the end of, say, an Auralic Aries, would get you most of the way there (the AES67 protocol has some theoretical advantages over, say, RAAT, but they not be that relevant in home use).  When I say “most of the way”, I’m thinking 99% of the way … and for about half the cost.
 
Of course, you could put an Yggdrasil on the end of that Aries, which I do, and beat both of them quite convincingly for 3/5^th of the THAT cost and well under half of the NADACs sticker.
 
I’m hoping Merging will put out a plain AES67 interface.  While it would have to contend with other issues, not being built-in to the DAC itself, it might well prove to be THE best Ethernet transport available.
 
Unfortunately as a DAC, it left me wanting, despite the absolutely magnificent build quality and subdued but very agreeable aesthetic.
 
Using the headphone output wasn’t very inspiring … it was fine with easier to drive cans, but didn’t fare at all well with the LCD-4 or Abyss, and was nowhere near the capability of the headphone amps I usually use, nor was it in the same realm as those on the Chord units.
 
Note that I did not try this unit with an external clock – at this price level, you need to get that right out of the box.  I think that’s really, in this case, more of a holdover for studio applications than home-audio.  Yes, sure, better clocks make a difference, especially with D/S converters, but still …
 
So, very cool technology (possibly a harbinger of the next practical Ethernet audio STANDARD), beautiful execution, but not at a level the justifies the lofty price and readily outperformed, musically, by my current, much cheaper, benchmark – Yggdrasil.
 
It's worth noting that I'd take Yggdrasil via TOSLINK directly out of my Mac Pro over the NADAC on it's AES67 input.  Putting the Schiit DAC on the AES output of the Aries just puts it even further ahead.

torq said:

   
As a result, the criteria for inclusion there will be, going forward:
 

1. Ethernet and/or WiFi input.
2. Native Roon support (or an easy way to integrate it with Roon, as with the RedNet).
3. Preferred AES/EBU XLR output, TOSLINK and COAX acceptable, won't use the USB interface.

 
Just something to think about ...

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I'm on the same page as you.  My amplification, DAC and speakers are pretty much set for the next decade.  I'm not interested in 10 boxes to "fix" USB.  The only new equipment I am remotely interest in is an ethernet box with AES/EBU XRL out and roon, just like you.

Didn't read everything, just found the thread.  What did you think of the Master 7, didn't see you post anything on it even though it marked as blue, meaning you've listened to it.
 
I am getting my Yggy soon, and will be comparing it to the Master 11.  I can see some trouble with your DAC search, if you're listening to your rig, both Ragnarok and WA5 is inherently warm amps, thus it may explain why you think Yggy is not bright as some have reported.  I found Rag to be too muddied compared to the Master 11 amp, WA5 is also a soft sounding amp.  Not saying any of them are bad, just that it seems that your amp paring favor bright(er) DAC.

khragon said:

  Didn't read everything, just found the thread.  What did you think of the Master 7, didn't see you post anything on it even though it marked as blue, meaning you've listened to it.
 
I am getting my Yggy soon, and will be comparing it to the Master 11.  I can see some trouble with your DAC search, if you're listening to your rig, both Ragnarok and WA5 is inherently warm amps, thus it may explain why you think Yggy is not bright as some have reported.  I found Rag to be too muddied compared to the Master 11 amp, WA5 is also a soft sounding amp.  Not saying any of them are bad, just that it seems that your amp paring favor bright(er) DAC.

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He would have to buy the DAC to try it out.  I would recommend the he-7 over the master 7 as it is the upgraded version. 

khragon said:

  I am getting my Yggy soon, and will be comparing it to the Master 11.  I can see some trouble with your DAC search, if you're listening to your rig, both Ragnarok and WA5 is inherently warm amps, thus it may explain why you think Yggy is not bright as some have reported.  I found Rag to be too muddied compared to the Master 11 amp, WA5 is also a soft sounding amp. Not saying any of them are bad, just that it seems that your amp paring favor bright(er) DAC.

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Congratulations on your future acquisition of Yggdrasil. Make certain that you let it warm up for a week. I would be interested to hear how it compares, to you, versus your Master 11.
 
Did you detect muddy sound through the Ragnarok with both the HE-1000 and HD800S headphones? Are you running fully balanced through the Ragnarok, meaning balanced DAC source and balanced 4-pin XLR output into the headphones? Are you using the original factory headphone cables?
 
Last, I must disagree with the notion that the Yggdrasil is or could be bright, or that the darkness of a DAC could be addressed by brightness of an amplifier. The DAC should be the most resolving representation of the analog transformation from the original digital source as possible. There is no amplifier that can add back in the information, once it a lost by the DAC source.

As a totaldac owner, and having exchanged in pm with torq to thank him for the great contribution he's doing to all, I guess my feathers are being referred to in above posts.

I keep catching up with this thread but I guess the D1-dual was so disappointing that Torq couldn't be bothered to write impressions (this is all so much work though, respect!).

I think any criticism is good as long as it's constructed and Torq has been pretty clear on what he did and didn't personnally like so far so I am hoping same (even if succint ) will be shared on the d1 besides the throw it to the garbage grading it received so far.

It's also fair to the manufacturer who probably took some of his time to answer your question / arrange for some audition on site and what not? It's a one man operation so I assume he must be rather but he always replies emails within a day for me. Anyhow, I obviously am biased here but that'd be the first time I read something negative on his products.

Last comparison I recall is that of prepoman who actually bought it / listened to it for a long while at home. He preferred the "voicing" to the yggi which he owned and sold after that. But he eventually sold the d1 for a meitner or something, finding the latter more resolving I recall.

Personnally I have to admit I did not do A/B with many top dogs because of lack of time / disposable income to arrange for home audition (only option that makes sense to me to judge DACs because differences are so very subtle in the grand scheme of things). So, good or bad results, I welcome torq's contribution because it's an honest one.

Now, for others rejoicing on the fact that the TotalDAC gear is not performing up to reputation, I can see where they come from if they can't afford it in the 1st place (it's comforting, just like it can be distressing for existing owners to read bad feedback ...).

For the Bricasti M-1, I also happen to like that unit so interested to read your thoughts too but seems our taste differ .

Cheers,
Arnaud

khragon said:

  Didn't read everything, just found the thread.  What did you think of the Master 7, didn't see you post anything on it even though it marked as blue, meaning you've listened to it.
 
I am getting my Yggy soon, and will be comparing it to the Master 11.  I can see some trouble with your DAC search, if you're listening to your rig, both Ragnarok and WA5 is inherently warm amps, thus it may explain why you think Yggy is not bright as some have reported.  I found Rag to be too muddied compared to the Master 11 amp, WA5 is also a soft sounding amp.  Not saying any of them are bad, just that it seems that your amp paring favor bright(er) DAC.

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I elected not to put the Master 7 into the main list.  I think I referred to it in an interim summary of what I was going to compare, but despite having listened to it (on a number of occasions as it happens, but also as part of this process), I just didn't want to bother dealing with it formally.  I'm no fan of the PCM-1704 ... no matter how many of them you decide to stick in your DAC.
 
As to the Ragnarok and WA5LE ... I have a completely different opinion of those amps than you do, it seems.
 
I would not, remotely, describe Ragnarok as warm (and most of the descriptions I've heard say it's the opposite), nor would I say that about the WA5-LE (unless you chose tubes specifically to give it that signature).  And there's nothing at all soft about the WA5-LE either (don't know about the Mk1, but I have the latest version), and that's with the stock cheapo tubes - let alone the Takatsuki's I have in there now.  It's fast, dynamic, and slams as hard as anything else I've heard (which is quite a bit).  The mid-range is liquid, but I still wouldn't say that imparts anything I'd consider as softness or warmth.  I'm sure you could find tubes that make it sound soft, but that's never been a description I've associated with it nor one I'm accustomed to reading when it's paired with appropriate tubes.
 
That said, you hear what you hear.
 
I run these amps with Abyss, LCD-4 and HD800S and they don't leave me wanting for much.  I do like the EC stuff ... sonically ... can't handle the aesthetics though.  The DecWare stuff is excellent ... but again, not really the look I want in my listening room (which is very visible to anyone that comes to my home).
 
Beyond that, most of these DACs have also been auditioned with other gear, including my speaker system.  I've heard Yggdrasil in dozens of configurations including my own, at friends, at meets and while I was auditioning stuff in Europe ... it's never come across as anything but neutral and balanced.  

arnaud said:

As a totaldac owner, and having exchanged in pm with torq to thank him for the great contribution he's doing to all, I guess my feathers are being referred to in above posts.

I keep catching up with this thread but I guess the D1-dual was so disappointing that Torq couldn't be bothered to write impressions (this is all so much work though, respect!).

I think any criticism is good as long as it's constructed and Torq has been pretty clear on what he did and didn't personnally like so far so I am hoping same (even if succint ) will be shared on the d1 besides the throw it to the garbage grading it received so far.

It's also fair to the manufacturer who probably took some of his time to answer your question / arrange for some audition on site and what not? It's a one man operation so I assume he must be rather but he always replies emails within a day for me. Anyhow, I obviously am biased here but that'd be the first time I read something negative on his products.

Last comparison I recall is that of prepoman who actually bought it / listened to it for a long while at home. He preferred the "voicing" to the yggi which he owned and sold after that. But he eventually sold the d1 for a meitner or something, finding the latter more resolving I recall.

Personnally I have to admit I did not do A/B with many top dogs because of lack of time / disposable income to arrange for home audition (only option that makes sense to me to judge DACs because differences are so very subtle in the grand scheme of things). So, good or bad results, I welcome torq's contribution because it's an honest one.

Now, for others rejoicing on the fact that the TotalDAC gear is not performing up to reputation, I can see where they come from if they can't afford it in the 1st place (it's comforting, just like it can be distressing for existing owners to read bad feedback ...).

For the Bricasti M-1, I also happen to like that unit so interested to read your thoughts too but seems our taste differ .

Cheers,
Arnaud

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I will be writing up ALL the DACs that are on the list on the first page, including the TotalDAC.  I just haven't gotten to doing so yet.  I've got, what, ten more write-ups to do from the batch so far?  Which involves going back to my notes, and then composing something that's actually comprehensible to someone other than me!
 
So, fear not, I shall post my impressions of all of them.
 
And remember, this is NOT just about sound-quality ... there are many factors in play.  In my write-ups I'm focusing on the reproduction of each unit simply because my concerns/biases/preferences elsewhere are rather unlikely to coincide with that of other people.  But the sound factor should be interesting to all.
 
TotalDAC were not, beyond building the thing in the first place, in anyway involved with my audition.  In this case I listened to a friend's unit - at length.  That was during my recent trip.
 
I've said nothing negative about TotalDAC - at most, so far, all I've indicated is that it won't be what I'm purchasing instead of a 2nd Yggdrasil.  I've not indicated anything about why.
 
And it is entirely possible that I won't choose what I self-determine to be the BEST sounding DAC simply because it's very closer to another that has some more appealing feature that I'm interested in having access to.