Originally Posted by goodsguys /img/forum/go_quote.gif

Hi. Thanks for the replies.

 

What i am after is more specific answers Model numbers of motherboards with quality graphics and audio onboard.

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Well here's the thing, I can't just toss out mobo models because that depends on what CPU you will use. Not every CPU fits on the sockets on every mobo. That's why I said building a computer is relatively complex as you stated a budget and I started with the cheapest CPU with a good built-in GPU chip that I haven't heard of stuttering issues (or not as much as the A4 APUs), but by now the "gaming" grade mobos for the AMD Kaveri APUs aren't available anymore on PCPartPicker's listings, although MSI's last gen mobos had at least one.

 

I'll do it your way though to illustrate why I didn't initially. Here is a short list of motherboards with good audio circuits just from MSI (it'll basically be the same with Asus and Gigabyte):

Z97I Gaming AC - $150-ish (Z170 will cost a bit more)

Z97M Gaming - $180-ish (Z170 will cost a bit more)

A88-G45 Gaming - $140-ish (not sure about next gen)

A88-XM Gaming - $170-ish (not sure about next gen)

 

The problems?

1. First two use Intel Haswell processors, and preferably "K" or unlocked (ie overclockable) models, which are too expensive for your $500 budget at around $200 each just for the i5 CPUs, and even then AMD integrated graphics are still slightly better (unless Intel's does 4K on video playback)

2. Second two use the large AMD socket that can use AMD APUs, but they're ATX-size - meaning you'll use a full-size motherboard and ergo will have to full-size case

3. There might not even be any mITX board compatible with the affordable and good video chip-equipped AMD APUs, so you'll either end up building a large but empty computer (unless you fill it up with HDDs), or you use a mobo without good integrated audio and then use a soundcard; or you can use Intel and spend half your budget on the mobo and CPU

4. Gaming mobos have the great DAC and analogue circuit (including Gigabyte printing the analogue signal path on opposite sides of the PCB), but you're also paying for the audio DSP chip (unless you get the ASRock, but the gaming board in their website with good audio compatible with the affordable APU is like MSI ATX-sized), plus the overclocking chips they usually come with

 

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Originally Posted by goodsguys /img/forum/go_quote.gif

 

I don't know enough about electronics to figure it out but whatever i plug into my pc makes little or no improvement in a/v terms compared to onboard.

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As I previously discussed there are a lot of factors why you can't hear any, primarily that there isn't that much more performance to be had in the first place...except an overclocking board with great gaming audio is only $30 or so more. Of course, that looks small if one has a $1,000 budget that includes a $200 CPU for example (and excludes the display). On top of that room modes are more audible, so what little gains are there are further masked.

 

If you're not going to really go after any mobo with a decent audio circuit, then you can use the mobo (or comparable models) in the screenshot I posted of the PCPartPicker list.

 

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Originally Posted by goodsguys /img/forum/go_quote.gif

 

For audio the external dacs route and pci soundcards seems to yield little headway, different graphics cards makes little difference from onboard perhaps movies is not an intensive job and most any graphics cards are good enough.

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Integrated graphics make little difference in movies but some cheap CPUs paired with cheap GPUs sometimes stutter for various reasons. Sometimes the CPU can't handle multiple applications running, even if they seem to be a "light" load; in some cases the GPU - and especially with the lower end APUs - are basically ancient, like the A4 series (which is why I used the A6 in the PCPartPicker list since it's just a few bucks more).

 

 

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Originally Posted by goodsguys /img/forum/go_quote.gif

 

I thought if i can get a good mobo in the first place then plug my amp and screen straight into this, it might be the simplest and cheapest way. Some boards boast nichicon capacitors and swappable opamps

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Yes but again these gaming boards have incompatibilities regarding your needs and your budget: too large mobo means a case too large for your intended use (unless you're really fine with that), or they take Intel chips instead of the more affordable AMD APUs. We either wait for the mITX models to come out as I said in my previous post, or since you can't hear the difference then just go for the mobo with no Nichicon caps and swappable op-amps (AFAIK this is a thing with Gigabyte and ASRock I think).

 

Basically, you are asking here because it's not a simple and straightforward thing to handle, and I'm telling you it's even more complex than you think

 More so if we're working with a smaller budget.

 

That, or you just get a pre-built miniPC, but note that in some cases some depend on moving a lot of air constantly over smaller heatsinks, which means you'll significantly increase the noisefloor, which is counter-intuitive in audio. The others that are quiet might have specs for running in an office, and might still have some hiccups running media playback.

 

Originally Posted by goodsguys /img/forum/go_quote.gif

After a whole loaf of googling i'm thinking about the asus rampage III formula mobo with onboard alc 889 audio

Here's a link to the review http://www.tomshardware.com/reviews/high-end-pc-audio,3733-19.html

The board is a few years old can't find it for sale anywhere might try amazon or ebay for a ised one..

I can get a 3.3ghz cpu for this board for 30 bucks, ram 4gb for 30 bucks.

What do you think any thoughts on this mobo

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Originally Posted by goodsguys /img/forum/go_quote.gif

Hi. Thanks for the reply.

 

Not sure what the processor is, purchased a ready built pc from a well known auction site.

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Originally Posted by goodsguys /img/forum/go_quote.gif

 

Just as a side issue to the amps,  I have a motherboard lying around purchased it a few years ago but never used it had some spare time last night so put it in a case, it's the gigabyte GA-MA785GPM-UD2H I paid £140

 

I compared it against the elitebook 8570p as a source and the sound and picture quality on the elitebook was a little better. It's just that someone said to me that the elitebook being a laptop type pc can't really compete against desktops this has stuck in my head and keeps prompting me to undertake further experimenting because it seems to make some kind of weird sense. I was told with a desktop if i do not like the sound quality just pull out the soundcard and put a better one in, or for video just remove the graphics card, pull out the power supply etc

 

Do you think this comparison i did is evidence that the elitebook is good enough as a source or is the gigabyte a rubbish board.

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Actually with laptops the noise when using USB DACs comes from the power supply, so the easy solution is to top off the battery and unplug the PSU. Same thing with desktops, except instead of batteries you'll swap out the PSU which means rerouting cables...and then bam! It wasn't the PSU, it's the mobo, so now you need to get a new mobo and depending on licensing you might need a new OS license at that point. It' hard to tell off the bat since other people might use the same mobo but not the same PSU or case, and given the improvements from one decent DAC to another isn't that large, it's a circuitous route to your goals when the role of the computer in this application isn't as much as, for example, if you wanted to game on it as well (or at least do photo editing on it). At best I can direct you to get a red motherboard where the manufacturers claim consistent and clean USB power, and usually a nice audio circuit, but in the end I can't be 101% sure you won't encounter any other issues; we're not even picking the other components yet.

 

Again what I'm saying is that the main problem here is that building a PC (or choosing a laptop, in the case of the ones with crap PSUs) isn't simple. For those who play PC games, especially the ones that aren't on consoles (or they just look a lot better on PCs with more graphics processing and texture mods), there's really no choice; however, in the application you need it for, there are all those options I've been enumerating. No need to figure out what mobo to get that has a great integrated audio circuit but won't have other issues, is cheap, and fits an affordable CPU (given the budget), no need to figure out where the noise is coming from, what CPU goes with it, how to cool the CPU, how to cool all the components without raising a racket due to all the fans blowing into the chassis, where to put a huge PC case or how to rout cables in a small case so they don't get in the way of the air flow...

 

The simplest way to answer that is that there isn't a simple answer. The reason why other people bother with those components really is that they're going to use the computer for other purposes, and for most, considerations like chipset capabilities, cooling, hell even color coordination of the components can still be put ahead of the integrated sound on the mobo. Some gaming boards with good USB power and audio circuits aren't that much more expensive than regular boards, but that's when we're comparing the same socket and chipset. Once we get to a total budget that isn't that big, as in your case, we end up with limited choices for CPUs and the mobo with it. When a relatively plain Z170 board is outclassed by the audio specs, WiFi gaming priority, gmaing peripherals-dedicated USB ports, no power drop outs in all USB ports even when used simultaneously, on a red motherboard for only $40 more, that also comes with the CPU for being $200 to start with.

 

If you still really prefer to use a PC for its interface, then...

 

Option 1: go back to my post with the screenshot of a parts list on PCPartPicker. I can't see what the price of last gen boards are since they're not on the site anymore, and not even on MSI's website for example, so we either wait for thew ones, or you check locally if there are any Red motherboards that use an FM2 socket that are in stock. Older Gigabytes might be green, designated Sniper; they switched to red last gen, but new ones are red and dark blue.

 

Option 2: get a prebuilt miniPC known for not having noise issues since all the part combos are consistent enough for all the relevant parts as they are owned by other people. Get something like a used MacMini, or a new Inte NUC. Either way, you will have to use an external DAC since these don't use Red motherboards, but these have SPDIF so no need to worry about their USB power circuits.

 

 

 

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EDIT : Just to illustrate how wide the differences can be, I've used many of my audio equipment well enough on at least four computers: my AMD A8-powered laptop, my own MSI H77MA-G3+Intel i7-2600K+Gigabyte HD7850+Antec HCG PSU gaming rig, my brother's Asus Z87(not sure what model)+Intel i7-3xxxK+MSI GTX 760+CoolerMaster PSU, and my cousin's Gigabyte H77(not sure what model)+i5 2500K+Gigabyte GTX660+Antec Green PSU, none of these had any electronic noise. I still don't use my own computer because it has a different kind of noise - fan air movement. Ambient temps over here are relatively high, so I'm more dependent on having a high volume of air moving in and out of the chassis quickly, and even at low power use the intake fans are noisy because I don't have enough PWM fan control terminals to run the intake fans off of them. At one point, I decided to try it out with the fans running at 7volts instead of 12volts, and even on low power with just the music player running while I'm using a pair of desktop speakers, the graphics card and CPU cooler ramped up their speed because the temps were a little too high for my profile. I have to set them to tolerate running at 60degC (GPU) and 50degC (CPU) and not speed up their fans, and at that point the only reason why I don't hear the fans even after four hours was because I ran the A/C. My brother doesn't have the same problem even though he uses Grados (with no isolation) because he has the CPU farther away from him and on the floor, plus the average ambient temp where he is is roughly 10degC cooler.

 

Now, all those budget boards from the three biggest brands have no issues other than my cousin and I dealing with fan noise. At one point I was at another cousin's house and I just got back from a local headphone meet, we tried out my gear on his desktop, and I got noise. This was an MSI board for an older Intel processor. He picked up a new computer and new PSU at some point, this time with a red motherboard, and there was no noise....until he installed a GTX 680 graphics card and through both analog and USB digital outputs there was a barely audible electronic whine. It wasn't audible when playing games, or rather it wasn't noticeable because he's too busy with everything going on in the games, so he gave up on solving it.

 

The thing is though since we all use our desktop PCs for gaming (and with the exception of my brother who prefers a Macbook, and sometimes I use my laptop for convenience if a bit slower) we use the same computers for editing photos thanks to the CPUs and GPUs. I'm the only one who would listen without doing anything else, so my noise-free but otherwise multi-purpose device is a smartphone (on Airplane mode, although when took the photo I forgot that part):

 

 

 

 

 

 

Originally Posted by goodsguys /img/forum/go_quote.gif

Hi. Thanks for the reply, much appreciated.

 

One last point on this issue which we have covered already requesting a little more information  what do you think about an external audio / video pre amp with usb input.

I've never used these before but the idea is to place all my movies and music on external 3 tb hard drive > hook up to a/v preamp usb input
which gives audio out for the sound
and hdmi/dvi out for the picture.

This sounds like a shorter route shortening the chain you called it and theoretically may give better picture and sound quality cutting the elitebook out of the equation all together.

 

Then if the pre amp can downmix all the different audio formats dts hd-ma, dolby truhd, dolby digital, into stereo i can hook that straight into my amp.

 

I did see integrated amps  but buying a pre amp alone will save me money and allow me to invest more and get a better pre

 

If this a good idea and could you advise on any makes or models of pre amp

 

Many thanks. John.

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