Objectivists board room
Dec 18, 2015 at 8:55 AM Post #1,516 of 4,545
So no manhoosive improvements in soundstage, imageing or other desirable and immediately obvious characteristics?

By now, with this state of relatively high quality, night and day differences are, in reality, hard to expect.
 
It is in detail, in the palette of shades equipment can accurately convey - or fails to do so. No really good component can, today, improve the sound to the point of some really big difference to whatever went on before. Digital in general has only recently became capable of approximately equalling what we once had with top analog equipment - and what some of us still do not find unworthy enough to leave for good. 
 
I did not hear the Mojo yet - but will at the first opportunity which will present itself. Did hear enough DACs and realized what is a go and what is a definitive no go - and the way Mojo works at least ticks one more "go" box than most.
 
There is one new "conventional hardware - but latest hardware" DAC/amp out at the moment, which does have a super appeal, regardless of its lowish price, 1/3rd of that of Mojo - the Xduoo X-5. The A/D converter used is about a year old - according to data sheets. And the rest also looks very promising:
http://www.head-fi.org/t/789886/xduoo-xd-05-portable-dac-amp-introduction-impressions
Only a few pre-production samples were available so far for the audition, so real world impressions/reviews after some time with it are not yet available. Expected to be available in few days, hopefully before christmas. This does have potential - but I will wait a bit before I pull the trigger.
 
Dec 18, 2015 at 9:12 AM Post #1,517 of 4,545
I'm probably being unreasonable dismissing devices that offer incremental improvements.
Very annoying that all these devices need the very clunky CCK. Bloody Apple. Come up with the super tidy lightning connector and then charge so much in licensing fees that it hobbles aftermarket accessories. :frowning2:
 
Dec 18, 2015 at 11:33 AM Post #1,518 of 4,545
So no manhoosive improvements in soundstage, imageing or other desirable and immediately obvious characteristics?

 
If you use phones that would stay within the power output ranges of the device you compare it is very difficult to perceive any difference as long as the DACs/Amp at the same level.
 
I used to use an iPhone SPL app and the built-in mic of the iphone to level match the devices I'm comparing. Then I learned this method has a huge deviation which is enough to cause audible imbalance. Using an oscilloscope or an accurate meter is better at making sure the level is very close. The subtle differences I used to hear became indistinguishable. One thing in common about these devices is that they measure well. Their published spec (at least for power output) is accurate. 
 
I can't say the same for most DAPs I tried so far. All I have/had didn't reach the output they claim on their spec sheet. Worst is their output clips when you push them at their maximum level.
 
As mentioned in this thread before, the electronics these days have reached a point where it's difficult to screw up a designed DAP, DAC or Amp. If a difference is easily perceivable, it's more than likely intentional or something is wrong with the design.
 
I see a pattern of DAP makers just cycle through different DAC chips when they release new products and basically claim improvements with everything else essentially the same. Little or nothing is improved on software side which can influence the user experience more than the hardware. Then reviews come along raving/hyping the new product filled with hyperbole with the same flawed methods of comparison.
 
Dec 18, 2015 at 11:41 AM Post #1,519 of 4,545
I'm probably being unreasonable dismissing devices that offer incremental improvements.
Very annoying that all these devices need the very clunky CCK. Bloody Apple. Come up with the super tidy lightning connector and then charge so much in licensing fees that it hobbles aftermarket accessories.
frown.gif

 
Apple is just one of the options out there . But yeah I agree it's one reason not to use an iDevice as transport. However, I find what Sony did on their walkmans worst than apple. You also need proprietary cable to use their walkmans as transport. For a single-purpose device to have a restriction like that is a head-scratcher.
 
Dec 18, 2015 at 4:42 PM Post #1,520 of 4,545
but who in audio does controlled testing? 1 out of 1000 on this forum? probably less. if I didn't have blind tests and measurements, I can tell I would be one of those "night and day" guys.

Lots of people do controlled testing .. maybe not 100% proper DBTs but even a simple BT could be quite a revelation too. You dont hear about many of those people cause there is no money in 'most modern stuff sounds same as good' .. you cant sell a magazine or build a forum on that.

And allow me to seriously doubt that you wouldve been one of those 'night&day' people in any world. It's not tests & measurements that those types lack .. and not information. Actually in the world of internet 'i didnt know' is not a valid escuse anymore .. it's almost a fault.
 
Dec 19, 2015 at 12:45 AM Post #1,523 of 4,545
 
but who in audio does controlled testing? 1 out of 1000 on this forum? probably less. if I didn't have blind tests and measurements, I can tell I would be one of those "night and day" guys.

Lots of people do controlled testing .. maybe not 100% proper DBTs but even a simple BT could be quite a revelation too. You dont hear about many of those people cause there is no money in 'most modern stuff sounds same as good' .. you cant sell a magazine or build a forum on that.

And allow me to seriously doubt that you wouldve been one of those 'night&day' people in any world. It's not tests & measurements that those types lack .. and not information. Actually in the world of internet 'i didnt know' is not a valid escuse anymore .. it's almost a fault.


I feel like I'm playing the devils advocate here, because deep inside I'm with you. but about myself, every time I get a new device to toy with, I use it casually for a few days, and sure enough, just like anybody else, I come up with soundstage this, bass that, less than when I use XX but close to when I use YY...
I might not call it night& day, but I could make a review and be just as ridiculous as most stuff we read everyday.
then I take out the switch and try to match the volumes(not always easy depending on the device, but I try). and of wonders of wonders, differences melt like ice in my mouth. some differences usually stay, but the magnitude goes way down 100% of the time. which makes me think that I'm a living exaggerating machine when I use no control.
already I'm way more moderate and I've done my old reviews that way, sometimes just matching the loudness by ear
frown.gif
. but it was enough already to make me look like a killjoy compared to other reviews.
nowadays I have a few low-fi measurement gear, so matching gear, recording, or doing an almost proper blind test(no double) has become my new normal when it comes to test gears. and the conclusions obviously are way more down to earth.
what if I didn't have all this? what if I had never bought my first switch? IMO, I would still believe that my O2 had way more bass and soundstage than my leckerton (when I fail to tell them apart in blind test). and most likely I would claim it every time the subject would come up. 
so really what saves me from making a fool of myself are those gears and knowledge of my very human limitations.
 
about internet and knowledge, again I agree with the idea, and people who spent 10years in the hobby and still don't know that volume matching matters, they just have no excuse.
but because the audio hobby is such a mess, it's easy to find answers, but pretty hard to be sure they're not BS. I had to unlearn a good deal of preconceptions I got from reading audio reviews by guys who looked like they knew their stuff. so I blame the guy that doesn't even try, but not the guy who tries and get mislead.
 
Dec 19, 2015 at 1:14 AM Post #1,524 of 4,545
Quote:
  So out of real curiosity why in a few weeks a portable media player gets almost 500 pages (!!!!) and more than 7000 posts, I decided to ask what is exactly happening inside the Chord Mojo. It must be some DSP or EQ messing up the sound in a good way.
 
   
Well to be fair there seems to be too much magical talk, same as in quackery, to sound any bit near believable.  Also other replies about any DAC vs the Mojo, something you cant compare etc etc. Seems I have my answers lol. If it really is that much better, there must be some software going on messing up the sound.

 
Quote:
   
Since you mentioned me...
 
I can't say I'm qualified to understand fully what Rob Watts programmed into his products, but my over-simplified understanding is that he has taken the Nyquist mathematics to the highest extreme possible in a single device by programming his own code onto an FPGA. That doesn't sound like magical talk to me. Granted, the tech is hard to understand, so it might seem that way. Maybe you should read all his posts, as he goes into lengthy explanations, though they will be hard to understand if you don't understand the technology. What I gather from his posts is that he has been very scientifically objective about his goals and the research that he has done and that has resulted in products which are subjectively enjoyable to listen to music with at the same time as a result.

 
Since my name got mentioned - there is no magic in Mojo, just thirty years of hard work researching DAC design using carefully controlled listening tests as a tool and making no assumptions. I create IP, and design silicon audio chips too; I have billion dollar semiconductor companies buying my services and patented IP; these companies do not sign multi million $ contracts on magic either.
 
What is often forgotten is that real science is about what we do not know, not what we do know; and in terms of understanding how the brain processes data from the ears to separate instruments out into separate entities science has very little understanding. My work has been centred upon looking at aberrations that interfere with the brains processing, and I have found some very interesting things - some errors are audible even when they are well below the threshold of audibility of the ears. I often think that the situation is akin to the ears having 16 bit resolution - but put a properly dithered 16 bit signal into a FFT and you can resolve signals well below the 16 bit limit. Thus, small signals that are below the resolution of the ear have important subjective consequences for the brains processing of the ear data.
 
One major aspect of what I do is centred upon the timing of transients. Mojo has some 500 times more processing power in the interpolation filter than conventional high performance DAC's. This is done because timing is an important perceptual cue - it is something I had studied and realised 30 years ago. You can read more about it here:
 
http://phys.org/news/2013-02-human-fourier-uncertainty-principle.html
 
This work is based on a paper published in Physical Review Letters. That physics journal does not believe in magic either.
 
Now the interpolation filter theory is very straightforward and proven mathematics. You can see more here:
 
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Whittaker%E2%80%93Shannon_interpolation_formula
 
Now the maths is clear; if you use an infinite tap length infinitely oversampled filter with a sinc response you will perfectly recover the original bandwidth limited analogue signal. My work in this was the realisation thirty years ago that using conventional limited tap length filters would have important timing consequences in that the timing of transients would have an uncertainty; and these timing errors would have serious subjective consequences. That's why for the past 20 years I have been designing and improving my own algorithm to reduce these timing errors and designed extremely long tap length WTA filters. It is not magic just hard science and rigorous listening tests.
 
But perhaps the academic stuff is not your thing. So take a look at these measurements of Mojo:
 

 
C:\Users\Rob\AppData\Local\Temp\msohtmlclip1\01\clip_image002.gif
     
 
This is FFT of Mojo at 2.5v RMS into a 300 ohm load. This is measured using my APX555. What is truly remarkable about this is the absence of any noise floor modulation - you can see this in the red trace with no signal. The noise floor at -175dB is the same whether the output is at 2.5v or nothing. No other DAC at any price (excepting other Chord DAC's) has this complete lack of measured noise floor modulation and its one important attribute as to why Mojo sounds so smooth and refined.
 
Getting this level of performance is not about magic; there are numerous ways for a DAC to create noise floor modulation, and I had to go to ridiculous lengths to achieve this level of performance.
 
To conclude; 500 pages in 8 weeks and dozens of awards and 5 star reviews is not magic - just thirty years of very advanced engineering.
 
Rob
 
Dec 19, 2015 at 4:58 AM Post #1,525 of 4,545
   
Since my name got mentioned - there is no magic in Mojo, just thirty years of hard work researching DAC design using carefully controlled listening tests as a tool and making no assumptions. I create IP, and design silicon audio chips too; I have billion dollar semiconductor companies buying my services and patented IP; these companies do not sign multi million $ contracts on magic either.
 
What is often forgotten is that real science is about what we do not know, not what we do know; and in terms of understanding how the brain processes data from the ears to separate instruments out into separate entities science has very little understanding. My work has been centred upon looking at aberrations that interfere with the brains processing, and I have found some very interesting things - some errors are audible even when they are well below the threshold of audibility of the ears. I often think that the situation is akin to the ears having 16 bit resolution - but put a properly dithered 16 bit signal into a FFT and you can resolve signals well below the 16 bit limit. Thus, small signals that are below the resolution of the ear have important subjective consequences for the brains processing of the ear data.
 
One major aspect of what I do is centred upon the timing of transients. Mojo has some 500 times more processing power in the interpolation filter than conventional high performance DAC's. This is done because timing is an important perceptual cue - it is something I had studied and realised 30 years ago. You can read more about it here:
 
http://phys.org/news/2013-02-human-fourier-uncertainty-principle.html
 
This work is based on a paper published in Physical Review Letters. That physics journal does not believe in magic either.
 
Now the interpolation filter theory is very straightforward and proven mathematics. You can see more here:
 
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Whittaker%E2%80%93Shannon_interpolation_formula
 
Now the maths is clear; if you use an infinite tap length infinitely oversampled filter with a sinc response you will perfectly recover the original bandwidth limited analogue signal. My work in this was the realisation thirty years ago that using conventional limited tap length filters would have important timing consequences in that the timing of transients would have an uncertainty; and these timing errors would have serious subjective consequences. That's why for the past 20 years I have been designing and improving my own algorithm to reduce these timing errors and designed extremely long tap length WTA filters. It is not magic just hard science and rigorous listening tests.
 
But perhaps the academic stuff is not your thing. So take a look at these measurements of Mojo:
 

 
C:%5CUsers%5CRob%5CAppData%5CLocal%5CTemp%5Cmsohtmlclip1%5C01%5Cclip_image002.gif
     
 
This is FFT of Mojo at 2.5v RMS into a 300 ohm load. This is measured using my APX555. What is truly remarkable about this is the absence of any noise floor modulation - you can see this in the red trace with no signal. The noise floor at -175dB is the same whether the output is at 2.5v or nothing. No other DAC at any price (excepting other Chord DAC's) has this complete lack of measured noise floor modulation and its one important attribute as to why Mojo sounds so smooth and refined.
 
Getting this level of performance is not about magic; there are numerous ways for a DAC to create noise floor modulation, and I had to go to ridiculous lengths to achieve this level of performance.
 
To conclude; 500 pages in 8 weeks and dozens of awards and 5 star reviews is not magic - just thirty years of very advanced engineering.
 
Rob

I have done 600ohm load measurements with the Hugo on loan from a friend using dscope at MIT, and the performance of the benchmark excels in some areas. None of this is still relevant however, considering that at far worse performances, the threshold for transparency seems to be reached anyways even for cheap models like the odac and o2.
 
I would be more interested in your controlled listening test results. Were there actually people who could tell apart reliably under DBT hugo with other models that fulfill necessary parameters for transparency. Who doesn't love all the additional zeros! But, the impresssions of vast improvements are sadly magic nonetheless imo.
 
Dec 19, 2015 at 8:21 AM Post #1,527 of 4,545
Could you provide us with some signals where the timing errors reduced by your product should be detectable in other products?
 
For reference, here is the full paper linked in the comments:
http://arxiv.org/pdf/1208.4611.pdf
 
See also this rebuttal:
http://arxiv.org/pdf/1501.06890v1.pdf
 
Dec 19, 2015 at 9:29 AM Post #1,528 of 4,545
 I'm a huge supporter of oversampling, not sure if we need to go that far, but if there are no huge drawback, that's fine by me.
is it zero padding? if it is, what's the attenuation as a result? (I guess RRod you can answer that just as well). not that it actually matters, it's pure curiosity. I only have seen the model for the most basic delta sigma and never thought about what would happen with a lot more.
edit: forget this, first because I left half of the question in my head so it looks like I'm asking about the output signal when I was asking about dtft. and second reason to forget it, is that after looking it up a little, I had a wrong idea from looking at some PDF about another DAC where I just didn't see that the dtft graphs were showing linear values instead of DBs(thus my idea that they were doing something special when they really didn't
redface.gif
).

 
personally I don't see portable amps as voltage gain or current gain tools, I'm a hardcore IEM user so unless the source really sucks with current, power is usually not a concern in my life. my actual amp is used as a literal de-hissers for my overly sensitive IEMs. shigzeo mentioned some low hiss and I trust his hiss estimates with my life, so I know it's not for me. but for slightly less sensitive IEMs, portable headphones and apparently given the specs it would also drive my hd650 very well and very loud, then for those uses, it does look like a great pocketable product. 
 
I'm also curious about the impedance output, it's really great to have amps that are actual near zero ohm at the output, at least on paper, but it rarely happens even for gear with negative feedback. so as almost everybody else sticks above 0.5ohm or so, I wonder what are the drawbacks/difficulties of such a choice?
 
Dec 19, 2015 at 12:32 PM Post #1,529 of 4,545
  Could you provide us with some signals where the timing errors reduced by your product should be detectable in other products?
 
For reference, here is the full paper linked in the comments:
http://arxiv.org/pdf/1208.4611.pdf
 
See also this rebuttal:
http://arxiv.org/pdf/1501.06890v1.pdf

 
"In this Comment, we demonstrate that the experiment designed and implemented in the original article was ill-chosen to test Fourier uncertainty in human hearing."

 
That was a nice way to put it.  It reminds me of Bob Stuart's/Meridian's MQA and how their testing methods appeared to be carefully contrived in such a manner that it would be possible to make their claims appear valid.  They jumped to conclusions and ignored ideas that may have refuted these results.
 
https://mrapodizer.wordpress.com/2015/01/13/mqa-what-is-meridian-hiding/
 
It is almost as if these guys are trying to sell me something. 
 
Dec 19, 2015 at 12:38 PM Post #1,530 of 4,545
   
 
That was a nice way to put it.  It reminds me of Bob Stuart's/Meridian's MQA and how their testing methods appeared to be carefully contrived in such a manner that it would be possible to make their claims appear valid.  They jumped to conclusions and ignored ideas that may have refuted these results.
 
https://mrapodizer.wordpress.com/2015/01/13/mqa-what-is-meridian-hiding/
 
It is almost as if these guys are trying to sell me something. 


lol
 

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