CHORD ELECTRONICS DAVE

rkt31 · Dec 3, 2015 at 6:19 AM

something went wrong in copying the user name !

lovethatsound · Dec 3, 2015 at 10:18 AM

daveredref-iii said:
One key area where Dave has been continually acclaimed by those who have heard it is in the dynamics. Yet someone comes along, misuses the product (if indeed he did) and proclaims it is 'flat in the dynamics' but it is brilliant if used in a way it was not designed for. Oh and it overheats when misused! If indeed it genuinely was tested in this way (which I doubt).

Like Jazz I am becoming increasingly skeptical of some comments of late and I wouldn't be surprised if there were multiple aliases being used here too. Someone posts a ridiculous claim then someone else responds as if the ridiculous claim is now fact. I have seen this strategy over and over in many different sectors of business - When a commercial (or personal) pocket is likely to be hit there seems no level to which some people will not stoop in order to protect their position.

Lovethatsound reply

I don't think people are using multiple aliases just expressing their opinion,most people on here own chord products.I fully respect Rob watts,but it doesn't mean i have to agree with him all the time,And on the subject of balance headphones i don't agree with him,because like you've said ive let my ears do it for me.bmichels who put the post up about Dave over heating has just done a review of the chord Mojo for chord,go and have a read of it and tell me if you think people are still use aliases.Alot of people who just use headphones were hoping that Dave was a 1 box solution,now Rob has made it clear that he will never put a balanced on Dave for headphones alot of people won't buy it,personal myself if think Robs being a bit silly about it,At the end of the day I'm sure Dave will do well in the market place,but ive got a feeling it would do even better with a balance headphone output on,but that's chords loss.

JaZZ · Dec 3, 2015 at 11:58 AM

lovethatsound said:
Quote:

daveredref-iii said:

One key area where Dave has been continually acclaimed by those who have heard it is in the dynamics. Yet someone comes along, misuses the product (if indeed he did) and proclaims it is 'flat in the dynamics' but it is brilliant if used in a way it was not designed for. Oh and it overheats when misused! If indeed it genuinely was tested in this way (which I doubt).

Like Jazz I am becoming increasingly skeptical of some comments of late and I wouldn't be surprised if there were multiple aliases being used here too. Someone posts a ridiculous claim then someone else responds as if the ridiculous claim is now fact. I have seen this strategy over and over in many different sectors of business - When a commercial (or personal) pocket is likely to be hit there seems no level to which some people will not stoop in order to protect their position.

Click to expand...

I don't think people are using multiple aliases just expressing their opinion, most people on here own Chord products. I fully respect Rob Watts, but it doesn't mean i have to agree with him all the time. And on the subject of balanced headphones i don't agree with him, because like you've said i've let my ears do it for me. bmichels who put the post up about Dave overheating has just done a review of the Chord Mojo for Chord, go and have a read of it and tell me if you think people are still use aliases. A lot of people who just use headphones were hoping that Dave was a 1 box solution, now Rob has made it clear that he will never put a balanced on Dave for headphones a lot of people won't buy it, personal myself if think Robs being a bit silly about it. At the end of the day I'm sure Dave will do well in the market place, but i've got a feeling it would do even better with a balanced headphone output on, but that's Chord's loss.

I also don't believe that there are people using mutliple aliases in this thread – that's an unnecessary suspicion.

But why do you insist on balanced drive? How do you know it's not possible to make a single-ended headphone output which is sonically superior? And why write off DAVE just because of this (lacking) feature without having heard it? I say it's an opportunity to learn something new: Not all hi-fi wisdoms deserve their spread – there are a lot of misleading half-truths and urban legends around on Head-Fi (and elsewhere). Note that the concept of balanced headphone drive is technically questionable, at least there's no clear technical/theoretical justification for it, just a subjective preference for corresponding systems allowing to switch between both modes. But it's not even unanimous and sometimes depending on the configration.

The above example of an obvious mismatch at hand which nevertheless sounded far superior to the reviewer (unfortunately deleted by bmichels) is an opportunity to rethink subjective impressions. I'm not denying that they are the final instance for judging a component or system for the individual – according to his or her sonic preferences –, but the premise that «good sound» equals «accurate sound» is fundamentally wrong. According to my observations (not least here on Head-Fi) many people like harmonic distortion. And I can understand it. It effectively helps with concealing upstream flaws, especially transducer nonlinearities, and creating synergies – whereas the «unvarnished truth» in the form of a signal close to the purity and accuracy of the original signal may sound dry, lean and uninvolving. That's the reason why people like to add amps to Chord DAC's headphone outputs and why they like tube amps in particular – the latter are prone to produce especially euphonic distortion.

Now that I've completely bowed out of this concept I'm thankful to have found a manufacturer of high-end components – Chord Electronics – supporting the puristic approach on all levels, with a minimalistic headphone output guaranteeing maximum signal accuracy. In my book DAVE is indeed an ideal 1-box solution (as it seems), given that it's a Hugo with again increased accuracy and transparency, resulting in a sonic realism unmatched so far in the right configuration – not to forget equalizing. At least that's what I'm hoping for. For people who can't renounce the conservative approach yet – like yourself, apparently –, there are a lot of alternatives around.

(There's something wrong with the formatting of Head-Fi posts.)

Sonic77 · Dec 3, 2015 at 1:35 PM

Why did bmichels delete his post? He was using the Dave dac wrong and almost damaged and over heated it?

bmichels · Dec 3, 2015 at 1:51 PM

sonic77 said:
Why did bmichels delete his post? He was using the Dave dac wrong and almost damaged and over heated it?

I did not want to encline people to test this option that apparently could damage the DAVE (or at least is strongly NOT recommended by Chord)
I will post on this matter again after more tests and clarification are done.

May be this XLR->Headphone option is only safe with TotalDAC and should not be used with most other DACs ?

Sonic77 · Dec 3, 2015 at 2:10 PM

I thought this thread was about Dave dac not total dac?

Beolab · Dec 3, 2015 at 5:39 PM

sonic77 said:
I thought this thread was about Dave dac not total dac?

This is because many find the TotalDac to be DAVEs target competitor .

But i think and hope the DAVE can come out on the top, its an old tech Ladder R2R vs Puls Array with interpolation.

Kakki · Dec 3, 2015 at 5:57 PM

rob watts said:
Yes depth is about 1/3 deeper now, and its a bit smoother, with better detail resolution. But upgrading the internal noise shapers was the only audio change I did; the rest of the work was control issues.

Rob

With more depth, smoothness, and better details!! Really looking forward to listening the production model. Thank you for your reply.

Beolab · Dec 3, 2015 at 6:58 PM

@Rob Watts

Rob this is just a philosophical / hypothetical question i have thaught of for a couple of month now, and that is if you feel that the DAVE are superior in the digital and analog section from any other high end DACs, or if you had the oppertunity to handpick bits and solutions from other companies, have you then come up with an even better solution if your budjet where in the $100.000 like the MSB Select II or the DCS Vivaldi stack?

Would be very intersting to here your impressions on this kind of hypothetical question.

Rob Watts · Dec 4, 2015 at 7:14 AM

rkt31 said:
now the things are very clearly explained why balanced headphone drive was avoided in dave. one thing more can headphones be attached through rca out of dave ? what is the output impedance of rca out, xlr out and headphone out ? are they all different or same like in hugo ? i currently tap rca out of hugo both for my power amp and sub through rca splitter and it works great ! can i tap rca of dave similarly ? it would be very kind to answer my queries ! thanks in advance .

The RCA output is connected to the headphone - but via different relays. When Dave sees the headphone socket being used, it goes into headphone mode - shuts down the RCA and XLR, and restores the original volume setting when headphones were used last. Also cross-feed is enabled. The headphone sockets we use are as good as the RCA.

Rob

robeeert1 · Dec 4, 2015 at 7:15 AM

beolab said:
@Rob Watts

Rob this is just a philosophical / hypothetical question i have thaught of for a couple of month now, and that is if you feel that the DAVE are superior in the digital and analog section from any other high end DACs, or if you had the oppertunity to handpick bits and solutions from other companies, have you then come up with an even better solution if your budjet where in the $100.000 like the MSB Select II or the DCS Vivaldi stack?

My friend did already managed to compare Dave to DCS Vivaldi stack and the Dave was absolutly superior to DCS with detail retrieval.

In his subjective opinion Dave is world's best DAC in that catagory, I suppose Total DAC would be in big troubles while comparing.
But we will know when we get both DACs available.

Better budget - always better DAC.

Rob Watts · Dec 4, 2015 at 8:17 AM

beolab said:
@Rob Watts

Rob this is just a philosophical / hypothetical question i have thaught of for a couple of month now, and that is if you feel that the DAVE are superior in the digital and analog section from any other high end DACs, or if you had the oppertunity to handpick bits and solutions from other companies, have you then come up with an even better solution if your budjet where in the $100.000 like the MSB Select II or the DCS Vivaldi stack?

Would be very intersting to here your impressions on this kind of hypothetical question.

Clearly if I thought other solutions were better, then I would already be doing it. I have been designing DAC's for over 27 years, and designing with my own DAC technology for 22 years. That's a long time. Also, I am the only DAC designer who has designed silicon chips too, and had a very successful career on that side. Its given me a very valuable insight into the engineering problems of DAC design with silicon, as well as valuable insight into how these devices are developed.

I do get to hear other DAC's at shows, and am interested in the technology. But I have not heard or seen anything that has caught my attention. And just because its 100K does not make it better - too many audiophiles listen with their wallets rather than their ears...

I can say for certain that I do things that I know make a big difference to performance, and no other DAC designer does these things.

I can also say for certain that Dave sets new measurement standards for DAC's at any price - unfortunately only an APX555 is capable of demonstrating that as Dave has better performance than most test gear. But as a listener how it measures is not too important, but its not appropriate for me to comment on sound quality against other products.

But I will say that I have never heard a DAC sound anything like Dave, it is very different. Only you can decide whether it works for you or not.

Rob

Christer · Dec 4, 2015 at 8:20 AM

Hi Rob,
I have two further questions regarding the DAVE. Could you let me know who will possibly stock it here in KL? And what do you mean by cross-feed is enabled when headphones are plugged in?
I hope it can be turned off if not wanted as on HUGO. I never use cross-feed settings on simply and realistically recorded classical material.
With simple recordings and binaural in particular cross-feed will surely "rob" the recording of essential spatial cues.
By the way when will you arrive in KL?
I am here since yesterday. My flight from Sri Lanka was delayed for two days!
And unless my next flight is delayed too I am flying onwards to Thailand on the 7th.
Anyway, this afternoon I went to the rehearsals for Saturday's and Sunday's concerts by the Malaysian Philharmonic Orchestra and will attend both.
You know that essential reference I am always so keen on.
And next time here in KL, I will spend some time photographing their new resident conductor Ciarán Mcauley at work. He is a young Irish conductor who seemed very nice and has already conducted some big name orchestras.
If I miss you and DAVE this time again I hope I will still get to audition DAVE this winter in Asia either in KL or Singapore.
How come you are not touring Bangkok with DAVE?
I would have expected the market for highend DACs there to be bigger than Manila?
Cheers Chris

Rob Watts · Dec 4, 2015 at 8:47 AM

christer said:
Hi Rob,
I have two further questions regarding the DAVE. Could you let me know who will possibly stock it here in KL? And what do you mean by cross-feed is enabled when headphones are plugged in?
I hope it can be turned off if not wanted as on HUGO. I never use crossfeed settings on simply and realistically recorded classical material.
With simple recordings and binaural in particular cross-feed will surely "rob" the recording of essential spatial cues.
By the way when will you arrive in KL?
I am here since yesterday my flight from Sri Lanka was delayed for two days!
And unless my next flight is delayed too I am flying onwards to Thailand on the 7th.
Anyway, this afternoon I went to the rehearsals for Saturday's and Sunday's concerts by the Malaysian Philharmonic Orchestra and will attend both.
You know that essential reference I am always so keen on.
And next time here in KL, I will spend some time photographing their new resident conductor Ciarán Mcauley at work. He is a young Irish conductor who seemed very nice and has already conducted some big name orchestras.
If I miss you and DAVE this time again I hope I will still get to audition DAVE this winter in Asia either in KL or Singapore.
How come you are not touring Bangkok with DAVE?
I would have expected the market for highend DACs there to be bigger than Manila?
Cheers Chris

The Malaysian distributor is:

Centre Circle Audio
8, Ground Floor,
Lorong Rahim Kajai 14
Taman Tun Dr Ismail, 60000,
Malaysia
Range: Chord | Chordette
Phone: +60 3-7728 2686
Email: Info@centrecircleaudio.com.my
Website: www.centrecircleaudio.com.my

As to cross-feed I should have been a little clearer - the cross-feed control is enabled, which has a default setting of 0 (which is off). Yes I agree, cross-feed does not make sense for binaural recordings.

I am in San Francisco just done an event with Audio Vision, great event. I fly back to Jakarta Indonesia for Sunday afternoon Mook show, then Malaysia on Tues 8 Dec and back to Singapore on 10 Dec again for the Mook show. Have a chat with Centre Circle Audio, I am sure we can arrange a time for you to hear the production Dave, but it sounds like you will not be available then.

I will certainly be doing CanJam in Singapore, plus other trips hopefully to Thailand too. John was there recently.

Rob

Beolab · Dec 4, 2015 at 9:01 AM

rob watts said:
Clearly if I thought other solutions were better, then I would already be doing it. I have been designing DAC's for over 27 years, and designing with my own DAC technology for 22 years. That's a long time. Also, I am the only DAC designer who has designed silicon chips too, and had a very successful career on that side. Its given me a very valuable insight into the engineering problems of DAC design with silicon, as well as valuable insight into how these devices are developed.

I do get to hear other DAC's at shows, and am interested in the technology. But I have not heard or seen anything that has caught my attention. And just because its 100K does not make it better - too many audiophiles listen with their wallets rather than their ears...

I can say for certain that I do things that I know make a big difference to performance, and no other DAC designer does these things.

I can also say for certain that Dave sets new measurement standards for DAC's at any price - unfortunately only an APX555 is capable of demonstrating that as Dave has better performance than most test gear. But as a listener how it measures is not too important, but its not appropriate for me to comment on sound quality against other products.

But I will say that I have never heard a DAC sound anything like Dave, it is very different. Only you can decide whether it works for you or not.

Rob

Thank you very much for you crystal clear answer! What you have achieved here is a small revolution in my opinion, and i cant wait for my DAVE to arrive, and i hope it drive my Abyss headphones with easiness, so i don't need extra amplification and ruin the fragile and sophisticated perfect sound.

I sold my QBD76HDSD for almost 2 years ago because i felt based on the age of the QBD76 platform it has to come out a better version maybe, and and a few weeks later my dream come through when a small bird indicated that a end game QBD76 DAC follower are coming in about 7 month, so i have waited since then for over two years now, and just used my Hugo during this time, so in a short wile my "long" wait is over!

PS: This measuring device is a remarkable thing and without it we may not have seen DAVE put out this nice tones

http://apx555.ap.com/

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